Migrating from Wi-Fi to MoCA

[Shamino (David C.)]

Apologies, since this isn’t really Mac-related, but is a cross-platform network question.

I get broadband Internet access via a cable modem, which is distributed throughout the house mostly via Wi-Fi:

In the above diagram:

• A coax cable from the street carries DOCSIS traffic into my home.
• That passes through a simple connector to a coax cable in my home to a cable modem.
• The cable modem connects to my router (A Linksys router that is compatible with Velop nodes) via Ethernet
• The router distributes network traffic via Wi-Fi to three Linksys Velop mesh nodes.
• There are Ethernet switches not shown, connected to the Wi-Fi router and to two of the Velop nodes, to which are attached various Ethernet-connected equipment.

This all works, but the Wi-Fi backhaul part of the mesh network significantly hurts bandwidth. I subscribe to 300 Mbps service, and I see that on the Ethernet devices connected to the router and on Wi-Fi devices hat connect to the router. But I only see 20 Mbps or so at the three Velop nodes.

Since there is nothing else in my home using the coax wiring that was built-in, I am thinking of running MoCA traffic over it, which is much much faster (up to 2.5 Gbps) and should be able to deliver my 300 Mbps feed throughout the house and allow gigabit speeds between in-home devices.

After a bit of research, I think there are two different ways I can do this, and I’m hoping that some people here might have some opinions.

Here’s option 1:

With this option, I move my cable modem and router into (or more precisely, onto a shelf next to) the I/O panel where all the coax wires come together.

• The output of the router goes into a MoCA adapter
• That MoCA output goes through a MoCA-compatible splitter, to distribute its signal to other rooms.
• In those rooms, I have MoCA adapters and the Velop nodes.
• There will Ethernet switches (not shown) connected to some of the Velop nodes, and maybe to additional MoCA adapters to support wired traffic throughout the house.

This looks like it should work great. The only annoying problem is that the closet space in my basement where the wiring panel lives is where I’d have to put the cable modem and router. Which means installing a shelf (or some kind of wall-mount) in there for it. And fishing some coax wire through the wall from the panel to that shelf, since there’s no room inside the panel for a modem and router.

In order to avoid the annoying bits, it seems that the following option is also viable. Here’s option 2:

With this solution, my modem and router can remain where they are.

• The coax from the street first passes through a filter designed to prevent MoCA signal from leaving my home. I don’t want my data going to my neighbors, and I don’t want any MoCA from them (e.g. if they don’t have a filter) coming into my home, where it may interfere
• From there, it goes through a splitter compatible with MoCA and DOCSIS frequencies.
• One goes up to my office where the modem and router live.
  • The cable passes through a splitter.
  • One leg goes to the cable modem, for the DOCSIS traffic
  • The modem connects to the router as usual
  • One port from the LAN side of the router goes to a MoCA adapter, which connects to the other leg of the splitter, to permit MoCA communication with the rest of the house.
• The other outputs from the basement splitter go to other rooms, where there is a MoCA adapter and Velop node.
• Again, there will be Ethernet switches (not shown) connected to Velop nodes or to additional MoCA adapters to deliver wired connectivity where it is needed.

I’m told that this scenario will also work, but I am a bit concerned about interference between DOCSIS and MoCA. If you have experience with this topology, do you think it is a legitimate concern?

I know you can get hybrid modem/router devices with built-in MoCA, which simplifies the topology in my office, but I’d rather not use a hybrid device. I prefer having a separate modem and router, for reasons beyond the scope of this thread.

So, any opinions?

I realize that MoCA adapters aren’t cheap (ones capable of 2.5 Gbit speeds sell for about $60 each, with small discounts for 2-packs), and the second option requires more equipment (an entry filter and a second splitter), but I don’t think the differences are very significant.

[watrent (William Trent)]

There should be no problem with docis and Moca interfering. The reason the filters are used is to keep your neighbors from seeing your network traffic.

The biggest issue with the second scenario is the insertion loss between the cable entry and the modem. Even with high quality splitters and perfect connections, you’re looking at between 12 and 15 dB of insertion loss. Docis modems have a minimum input signal level of -15dBm. So potentially a very marginal signal. In my experience, you want at least -7dBm for a reliable connection. The signal level can usually be fixed with an amplifier at the cable entry point.

In my opinion, option one is the simplest and probably be fewer headaches.

[bb1 (Gordon Meyer)]

Does your cable modem have a coaxial pass-thru? If so, I’d connect the MOCA adapter there, instead using a splitter before/after the modem.

I ran a mixed wi-fi and MOCA network for years. This was a while ago, so maybe the problems have been addressed in newer versions, but it was a constant battle to get connectivity between local computers. Accessing the Internet usually worked fine, tho. My best advice is to make sure the adapters are accessible so you can reboot them, and the fewer adapters you can use, the better.

[josehill]

@bb1

Does your cable modem have a coaxial pass-thru?
{snip}
I ran a mixed wi-fi and MOCA network for years. This was a while ago, so maybe the problems have been addressed in newer versions, but it was a constant battle to get connectivity between local computers.

You raise a good point. For example, a lot of older bridging devices do not pass multicast packets between network segments or media types. It’s a common reason why wireless printers sometimes are Bonjour accessible to clients on one wireless band but not another, even though they are on the same IPv4 net. I’d expect that services like AirPlay would be similarly affected. Definitely worth verifying before buying anything.

[Shamino (David C.)]

@bb1

Does your cable modem have a coaxial pass-thru?

Sadly, it does not. So a splitter will be required.

@josehill

For example, a lot of older bridging devices do not pass multicast packets between network segments or media types.

I’ve personally experienced this in the past. But my network today has no problems passing traffic between Wi-Fi and Ethernet. So I don’t think using MoCA transceivers to connect Ethernet ports on remote nodes (replacing the Wi-Fi mesh backhaul) will change anything.

[Kuntzelman (Scott Kuntzelman)]

I’ve been using MoCA for the past couple of years. It works well.
I’m using the Actiontec model ECB7250K02 (it’s now ScreenBeam). They wired my house oddly, with no Ethernet (not making that mistake in the next house), and the coax drops all run individually to the cable box mounted on the outside of the house. I bought a Klein VDV512-101 tester to identify which cable in the box runs to which outlet in the house, and a package of 75 ohm terminator caps to use on the unused cables. I do not have Cable TV service.
I have two ISPs - Google fiber and Spectrum cable (I may be dropping Spectrum this month - the promo price is due to expire, and it’s not worth the regular price as a backup source). I use a Firewalla Gold Plus firewall (absolutely love it - 4x 2.5 G, full IPS packet inspection).

My network is configured like this:
Google fiber comes in at the wall in the living room near a cable drop (not used for the cable modem).
Spectrum cable comes in at the cable box and is connected directly to the cable drop in the guest bedroom off of the living room. This is connected to the cable modem.
Both the fiber jack and the cable box are connected to the Firewalla ports directly as WAN ports (I’m using Google as the primary and Spectrum as the secondary, although I could load balance - it’s interesting that Spectrum is consistently faster on download, but is asymmetrical and the fiber is faster on upload).
One of the LAN ports is connected to a small Ubiquiti UniFi switch for the devices in the living room (PS5, AppleTV, UniFi AP, etc.). The other is connected to a MoCA adapter on the cable drop in the living room.
I’m using a BAMF 3-way 5-2300MHz splitter in the cable box (SB-2300) to connect the drop in the living room to the IN port, and two drops upstairs to two of the OUT ports (the third port has a terminator cap for now). One of the upstairs ports is connected to my UniFi Distribution switch, which is connected by ethernet to my home office (a downstream switch), another UniFi AP, etc. The other port is connected to a UniFi mini switch and a UniFi AP to have better coverage on that side of the house.
I’ve had absolutely no problems with connectivity between devices. Wired and Wifi devices all can communicate well. It’s nice to have the 2.5G backbone. My wireless printer works fine from both wired and wireless devices (it’s currently configured for wireless). No issues with Apple HomeKit devices, nor Matter devices, using the HomePods / AppleTVs as the hubs.
I am planning on replacing the UniFi APs with the new Firewalla AP7 APs - I have two on order. I’m going to be implementing micro segmentation for the IoT devices, guest network, etc. Ubiquiti has the same in their newer stuff, but they came to the party with true dual WAN support late, and once I replaced my Dream Machine router with the Firewalla, I’ve started down the road of slowly replacing the UniFi stuff. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with the Ubiquiti stuff - but I prefer the features and interface of the Firewalla.

[Shamino (David C.)]

Thanks for the description. Could you possibly draw a picture for us?

I think your topology is similar to my option 2, with your living room jack carrying both DOCSIS from Spectrum to the cable modem and MoCA from your FirewallA to the rest of your home.

If so, do you use an entry filter to keep MoCA traffic from leaving your home? If not, could you explain the connections a bit more?

@Kuntzelman

Spectrum is consistently faster on download, but is asymmetrical

This is not surprising. The maximum bandwidths supported by the various DOCSIS standards (used for cable modems) are all asymmetric.

@Shamino

I am a bit concerned about interference between DOCSIS and MoCA

I found an article that shows the DOCSIS frequencies. DOCSIS 2.0 only goes up to 1GHz, which doesn’t interfere with the MoCA “D” frequencies that are typically used for LAN traffic.

But DOCSIS 3.1 might use frequencies in the same bands, if your ISP provisions them, and I’m told that DOCSIS 4 definitely will use them.

Which means that even if my “option 2” topology works, it may fail in the future if/when Comcast upgrades their DOCSIS infrastructure to one that uses these higher frequencies (and that entry filter would block them as well).

So I think I’m going to have to go through the additional aggravation of setting up option 1.

When I get a free weekend - assuming I ever get one

[Dafuki]

@Shamino

Which means installing a shelf (or some kind of wall-mount) in there for it. And fishing some coax wire through the wall from the panel to that shelf, since there’s no room inside the panel for a modem and router.

I think I prefer Option 1 for the network simplicity and am greatly amused that your objection to it is putting up a shelf. I realize that means at least 5 trips to Home Depot but you know . . . ?

@Shamino

But I only see 20 Mbps or so at the three Velop nodes.

That perplexes me. Are you sure that LinkSys is truly compatible? WiFi is always slower than real, like, wires but that’s odd.

If it makes you feel any better about this frustration I had a client with a big, old, heritage house with what seemed to be magical, hair-pulling, Faraday cages in every major segment of the house. Running ethernet or coax discreetly was out of the question ($$$) so we ended up with six Eeros. Worked great.

Dave

[Kuntzelman (Scott Kuntzelman)]

I’ll work on a picture. There’s not actually any direct connectivity between my inbound coax from Spectrum (directly connected to the cable modem) and the connections for the MoCA.
The way that they wired the house, there is a point-to-point cable from each jack in my house to the cable distribution panel on the outside.
The routing for cable:
from street -(coax)- 1:1 connector -(coax)- wall jack -(coax)- cable modem -(cat6)- firewalla
The routing for google:
from street -(fiber)- fiber jack -(cat6)- firewalla

Then from the firewalla:
Downstairs
firewalla -(cat6)- unifi switch -(cat6)- devices and AP
Upstairs
firewalla -(cat6)- MoCA -(coax)- wall jack -(coax)- outside distribution box 3:1 splitter
Run1
outside distribution box 3:1 splitter -(coax)- wall jack -(coax)- MoCA -(cat6)- unifi switch -(cat6)- devices and downstream switch/AP
Run2
outside distribution box 3:1 splitter -(coax)- wall jack -(coax)- MoCA -(cat6)- unifi mini switch -(cat6)- AP

So the three MoCA devices are essentially a hubbed network (they’re peers), but they only connect between the 3 of them. The rest of the cable drops are separate. There is no physical connectivity at all at the coax level between the connection to the street and the MoCA devices.

[Kuntzelman (Scott Kuntzelman)]

I tried to differentiate the connectivity. It doesn’t show the outside cable distribution box specifically, because I don’t know that it would add anything - it’s basically a box with about 10 indvidual coax cables, 1 down to the street, the rest into the house, point to point to the individual jacks.

Red is the coax that’s exposed to the neighborhood, on the ISP side of the cable modem.
Orange is the coax internally, with the 3:1 splitter, connected to the MoCA devices.
Blue are the Cat-6 ethernet cables.

[Shamino (David C.)]

@Dafuki

am greatly amused that your objection to it is putting up a shelf.

It’s not just a shelf. The panel where those cables come together is very small and is in a closet underneath the basement stairs.

There is no way to put equipment in that panel, and I can’t close the panel’s door if cables enter/exit through the user-access opening.

So I’ll need to install a wall plate (probably a foot or two above the panel) with two coax jacks and fish cables from those jacks to the panel. Then install a shelf (or attach a stereotypical sheet of plywood to the wall) to hold the equipment. Nothing inherently difficult, but what will likely be a full day’s work in cramped quarters - a pain in the neck that I’d prefer to not have to do.

Connecting new devices to the existing jacks, installing only a filter and splitter in the basement panel is just easier. But if is likely to cause problems (as it might today and definitely will when DOCSIS 4 is deployed), then I’d rather do the work today instead of being forced to do it at some unspecified time in the future.

@Dafuki

@Shamino

But I only see 20 Mbps or so at the three Velop nodes.

That perplexes me. Are you sure that LinkSys is truly compatible? WiFi is always slower than real, like, wires but that’s odd.

Yes. The router (a Linksys MR8300) is explicitly documented as being compatible with Velop mesh nodes. The Linksys management app and the router’s web interface both see all four devices as a single mesh.

Part of the problem is mine - I bought 2-channel Velop nodes instead of the more expensive 3-channel nodes. This was because I originally intended to bridge them with a powerline network. But after finding asbysmal bandwidth (about 12 MB/s, using “gigabit” transceivers, probably because the house’s power has two service panels and there are nodes connected to circuits in each), I decided to reconfigure it to use Wi-Fi backhaul. But without that third channel, the backhaul is using the same radio bandwidth that everything else uses.

But even that doesn’t explain everything. I think it’s the distance between the nodes (maximum distance is from one corner of the house in the basement to the diagonally-opposite corner on the second floor), and a lot of HVAC ductwork in the walls.

And although I have three Velop nodes distributed throughout the house, they don’t always connect to the physically-closest node. For instance, the basement node often decides to connect to a 2nd-floor node, which has a much weaker signal than the kitchen node, which is directly above it. I don’t think there is any way for me to explicitly configure the topology of the mesh, which is a shame because it would probably work better if I could.

The phone jacks here are all wired with Category-5, so I could theoretically replace my wall jacks and use Ethernet for backhaul (putting a small GigE switch in the basement, which would fit inside the panel), but the builder didn’t put jacks in every room - only the bedrooms and kitchen - notably absent being the rooms where we watch TV, where I’d want to put router nodes, so the devices there could use wired connectivity.

Which leaves MoCA. There are coax jacks in every room where I care (every bedroom, and the two rooms with TVs), and since we don’t subscribe to TV service anymore, only one jack (where the modem lives) is currently connected to anything.

@Kuntzelman

I’ll work on a picture.

Thanks. That makes everything much clearer.

I am curious about how the line from Firewalla’s MoCA adapter doesn’t interfere with the line from Spectrum.

If the box outside your house has one line to each room, wouldn’t the line from that box to the modem’s location (the Spectrum line) be the same physical line bringing data to the splitter for distribution to the other rooms?

Do you have two lines from the outside box to the room with Firewalla?

Or is the Ethernet line from Firewalla to its MoCA adapter running to another room, in order to use its coax line back to the outside box?

[Kuntzelman (Scott Kuntzelman)]

@Shamino

If the box outside your house has one line to each room, wouldn’t the line from that box to the modem’s location (the Spectrum line) be the same physical line bringing data to the splitter for distribution to the other rooms?

Hopefully this is easier. The first picture is the mess that is the outside cable junction box.

The second picture is the direct connection from the street (black coax) to the coax drop connected to the cable jack in the guest bedroom. Then I’ve got a cable from that jack running through the doorway to the cable modem in the living room (it’s ugly - if I were keeping Spectrum, I’d probably put a new jack on the living room side - the rooms share a wall, and that wall is the one with the cable jacks.

The third picture is the 3:1 splitter - the connection to the living room jack is connected to the “IN” side, and the connections to the two separate upstairs jacks (one at the back of the house in the bonus room, one at the front of the house in a bedroom) are connected to the “OUT” side. I don’t believe that there is anything preventing the MoCA devices connected to the “OUT” ports from talking to each other (I treat it as if they’re connected by a hub - a single collision domain).

[Shamino (David C.)]

@Kuntzelman

Then I’ve got a cable from that jack running through the doorway to the cable modem in the living room

Ah! That explains it. So the two sides of the modem are using jacks in different rooms.

Thanks. It all makes sense now.