This thread, as much as it’s for anything, is for whining about Apple (and I’d prefer it saw no traffic at all because everyone was able to stay constructive). I’m deleting all the more general whining. Post such stuff on Facebook or Twitter if you like, but not here.
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I’ve quoted statistics and sales results here many times…people are not upgrading their hardware, including mobile devices and personal computers, nearly as often as they used to. The exceptions are smart watches and earphones, and Apple leads the pack in terms of profits here. And yesterday’s financial report from Apple was very positive.
And I hope this is the last time I feel obliged to repeat myself about this…Tim Cook did NOT under any circumstances make Apple a tax criminal. The Irish government made them the best offer among the European Union nations that negotiated with Apple. And Tim Cook did not make them anything resembling “an offer you cannot refuse.” The EU tax issue is still actively being adjudicated and is far from being concluded. Ireland is backing Apple 100% and has consistently and clearly and consistently stated they do not want Apple’s $14 billion in back taxes if that’s the way the biscuit crumbles. There’s a very good two minute summary of what is expected to happen in the lastest installment of the EU courtroom drama, which will begin in the next day or two:
I’d like to make a request. Can we have a rule that if someone wants to whine about Apple, they should at least know something about the topic they are whining about, or make an effort to check facts?
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It’s illegal tax avoidance, due to backdoor deals which Ireland had no right to negotiate. Apple saw an opportunity to flout EU laws, not pay its share of tax on revenues from our territory. Tim Cook like the typical unethical leader of a multinational (most are American) has decided that when his hand is deep in the cookie jar to keep grabbing cookies.
The USA and its corporations have no right to do business on our territory and not to pay taxes on the revenue they accrue here. Shouting up and down about the rules in USA does not make them apply here. I understand that this sort of thing flies well in South America or the smaller Asian markets, but it does not fly in the EU.
If the goal is to generate ill-will and distaste among European consumers and lawmakers, Mr Cook and Apple are on a very good path right now. I as a small business owner in the EU who does pay his taxes take great exception to paying Apple’s share of tax for them (if Apple doesn’t pay the rest of us have to pay for Apple: EU countries are no longer allowed by law to run the same deficits under which the USA is slowly being crushed).
No worries. Apple’s antics in avoiding tax, repudiating Apple Care (tougher to get a MacBook Pro or an iPhone fixed than any other maker under warranty: a total flipflop on the Steve Jobs Apple Care policies, which were to charge for Apple Care but treat customers like the gold they are rather than turn warranty service into a profit center) and making very non-green, non-repairable machines have cost them about $10K/year in new hardware revenue from me. I buy used machines which can still be maintained and serviced and will run them for another five years.
If Apple starts to pay its way in the markets from which it accrues revenue and starts to build repairable computers again, they may see significant sums of money from me at that time. As I said earlier, I stay with Apple OS as I have a more than twenty year investment of expertise in working in and maintaining that OS, for the third party developers and for people like Adam who are what made working with Apple computers so special.
I really consider TidBITS part of that third party developer community. TidBITS didn’t power the applications themselves but much of the documentation and sharing of best methods and best independent software was done by the crew here. Generally Adam is too positive about current Apple, but Apple is slowly managing to put cracks even in Adam’s rose-coloured glass these days. Adam is just one of those people who is not comfortable not being cheerful.
I’m a slightly more cynical realistic sort who likes to call a spade a spade.
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Your confusion stems from the fact that you consider Ireland a victim. But in this case they are quite obviously the perpetuator. They colluded with Apple to defraud Europe of tax income by collecting something like 0.13% instead of the mandated 15%. So now the EU is suing to have Ireland forced to collect what they originally should have. Obviously Ireland doesn’t want to do that because they’d prefer to continue to collude with greedy companies to their own benefit. They’d rather not take in a few millions now and then gain many more in the future than collect one last time now before their little scheme is done once and for all.
That said, assuming the courts decide in the EU’s favor, Ireland is of course under no obligation to keep the money. If they oh-so don’t want it they can of course always send it to Brussels who will find a myriad ways to spend it. Perhaps they could send it with a little bowtie and a “sorry for being a dick” card. Maybe a card made by Apple with a Tim quote on it about how Apple always acts in the highest interests of humanity. Love and kisses (but no taxes, thankyouverymuch).
Ireland is of course perfectly free to decide they don’t want a minimum corporate tax rate of 15% and instead take on eg. D and F by offering near-zero dumping rate taxes for greedy multinational conglomerates with an ethics deficit. They are perfectly free to do all of that. After they have left the EU that is. The UK on the verge of falling apart is about to show the world how that experiment goes. According to our great President, it will be yugely successful. We’ll see. Interesting times for sure. :)
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It’s illegal tax avoidance, due to backdoor deals which Ireland had no right to negotiate. Apple saw an opportunity to flout EU laws, not pay its share of tax on revenues from our territory. Tim Cook like the typical unethical leader of a multinational (most are American) has decided that when his hand is deep in the cookie jar to keep grabbing cookies.
Steve Jobs negotiated the deal with Ireland and signed it in 1980; other EU countries pitched for the Apple business as well. There’s an excellent analysis of the major contribution Apple made to Ireland’s economy and how important the relationship to the country has been for almost 40 years here:
https://www.apple.com/ie/customer-letter/
What isn’t mentioned in the letter is that at the time the deal was signed, Ireland was headed to certain bankruptcy, technology jobs barely existed, and skilled workers and college graduates were leaving the country in droves. Apple took a tremendous risk in locating its EU headquarters in Ireland. Apple invested in training, and provided good working conditions and benefits, and their Irish work force grew very quickly, and Apple has been the biggest taxpayer in Ireland for decades. Apple’s success in Ireland has attracted many more technology companies to set up EU HQ there.
Tim Cook was still in college and was two years away from earning his BS in electrical engineering in 1980; He joined Apple in 1995. When Steve Jobs inked the deal with Ireland, he didn’t even know who Tim Cook was.
https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/032715/how-did-tim-cook-become-head-apple.asp
As Was mentioned before, Ireland doesn’t want the $14 billion, and they stand by Apple 100% in this matter. They insist that Apple is following Irish rules like other foreign based companies are required to do.
I really consider TidBITS part of that third party developer community. TidBITS didn’t power the applications themselves but much of the documentation and sharing of best methods and best independent software was done by the crew here. Generally Adam is too positive about current Apple, but Apple is slowly managing to put cracks even in Adam’s rose-coloured glass these days. Adam is just one of those people who is not comfortable not being cheerful. If he were on board the Titanic as it sank, he’d load some women and children onto lifeboats and praise the quality of the free whiskey the rescue teams get to drink.
I’ve been TidBITS Talking longer than I care to admit I’m old and I’ve been a subscriber for longer than that. I think this is totally inaccurate and unfair to Adam and the writing crew, and to Talkers as well.
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I fail to see how noting Adam’s sunny nature and positive outlook on life is unfair.
What isn’t mentioned in the letter is that at the time the deal was signed, Ireland was headed to certain bankruptcy, technology jobs barely existed, and skilled workers and college graduates were leaving the country in droves. Apple took a tremendous risk in locating its EU headquarters in Ireland.
Ireland’s politicians have conspired with Apple to break EU law. The deal was illegal then and is illegal now. Metaphorically your argument is that since Ireland was on the streets and penniless but since Apple tossed Ireland a few quid on their way to work every day, Ireland can tell the EU Apple don’t have to pay their taxes. It’s a scam, illegal tax avoidance: companies get away with many scams, particularly deep-pocketed and influential ones like Apple. But sometimes they get caught.
Were Tim Cook an ethical executive or even a visionary leader (without ethics), he’d admit Apple were caught out, recognise the importance of the EU market for Apple, settle and pay these taxes and future taxes.
The EU’s role in tax policy is to guarantee
businesses in one country don’t have an unfair advantage over competitors in another):
- the free flow of goods, services and capital around the EU (in the single market)
- businesses in one country don’t have an unfair advantage over competitors in another
Top footballers in the UK engaged in these kinds of illegal tax avoidance schemes in nineties and early 2000’s. They are now losing their houses or going to jail. It’s a difference of magnitude and not kind. Why should Apple get away with profiting from our market but stealing from us?
The obvious answer is they shouldn’t. If Apple were an ordinary thief and not a grand larcenist with government connections, Apple would be rotting in jail at this point. I don’t believe in selective justice. Do you?
November 8It’s illegal tax avoidance, due to backdoor deals which Ireland had no right to negotiate. Apple saw an opportunity to flout EU laws, not pay its share of tax on revenues from our territory. Tim Cook like the typical unethical leader of a multinational (most are American) has decided that when his hand is deep in the cookie jar to keep grabbing cookies.
Not a peep from the EU about this in 1980 when the global economy was in the toilet and Ireland and some other member countries were about to go down the toilet. It was only until the last few years when a rather unknown department head in the EU realized she could get, and keep, her name and face regularly in the papers, online and in broadcast media across the globe.
I really consider TidBITS part of that third party developer community. TidBITS didn’t power the applications themselves but much of the documentation and sharing of best methods and best independent software was done by the crew here. Generally Adam is too positive about current Apple, but Apple is slowly managing to put cracks even in Adam’s rose-coloured glass these days. Adam is just one of those people who is not comfortable not being cheerful.
If you are unhappy with the TidBITS community, there are plenty of forums out in cyberspace that will be more sympathetic to misinformation and your opinions. 4Chan and 8chan most probably have better venues for them.
Let’s see how realist you are: you keep saying Cook is a criminal, but as a number of people have pointed out, Jobs negotiated the deal. So was Jobs a tax criminal too?
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It’s always so instructive to hear people tell me what I think. 
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Thank you for dictating to me where I should spend my time and money. It’s lovely to see how tolerant modern Americans are of a dissenting voice. Modern McCarthyism. You should be ashamed of yourself bullying someone and attempting to ostracise him for disagreeing with you.
It’s always so instructive to hear people tell me what I think.
Not trying to put words in your mouth but I’ve seen a couple of articles lately where you come right out and say Apple has to do better – for example the Mojave update failure. I have more understanding for your position now: you are a natural optimist and I’m a natural critic. It’s not to say we don’t have some common ground of enthusiasm and not to say we don’t have some common ground of critique.
I’ve spent a long time studying the structures of power, both from up close and at a distance. There are many, many good people in the world. Sadly they mostly seem to be far from the levers of power. Egocentrically I’d say it’s a recent phenomenon, but Plato was complaining about the same issue exactly 2399 years ago.
You didn’t answer my question.
Ireland begs to differ with you…but the socialists that run the EU need more money for their giveaway programs.
No matter though…liberals think that taxing the rich will solve all their funding issues.
Fact remains that corporations are legally required to maximize shareholder value and pay the least amount of tax required.
You’ve said that a number of times. It’s not actually true:
“Corporate directors are not required to maximize shareholder value. As the U.S. Supreme Court recently stated, “modern corporate law does not require for-profit corporations to pursue profit at the expense of everything else, and many do not do so.” ( BURWELL v. HOBBY LOBBY STORES, INC. ) In nearly all legal jurisdictions, disinterested and informed directors have the discretion to act in what they believe to be the interest of the business corporate entity, even if this differs from maximizing profits for present shareholders. Usually maximizing shareholder value is not a legal obligation, but the product of the pressure that activist shareholders, stock-based compensation schemes and financial markets impose on corporate directors.”
Drawn from here
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Perhaps…did not realize SCOTUS had reinterpreted the law. Still…for the most part if management and board want to stay employed they are wise to maximize value. They are also not required to pay more taxes than legally required…and the definition of required is open to legal evaluation.
My point that corporations exist to profit is still valid…they do not exist to promote social or other political issues.
It’s not so much that SCOTUS reinterpreted the law as it is that the law never existed. Rather it was something driven by economists and became perceived as the dominant way of approaching running a corporation. But the legal requirement was never there.
They are also not required to pay more taxes than legally required…and the definition of required is open to legal evaluation
Er…yes. Which seems to be what is happening right now, and it looks like Apple’s (and Ireland’s) definition isn’t the one winning.
My point that corporations exist to profit is still valid…they do not exist to promote social or other political issues
Corporations exist for all sorts of reasons: to make profits, to serve their customers, to build market share, to employ family members, etc.
Or, to put it another way: does Amazon exist to maximize its profits?
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This may be true for Apple, but it isn’t true for all corporations anymore
There is a newish designation called a B Corporation:
B Corporation certification (also known as B Lab certification or B Corp certification) is a private certification issued to for-profit companies by B Lab, a global nonprofit organization with offices in the United States, Europe, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and a partnership in Latin America with Sistema B. To be granted and to preserve certification, companies must receive a minimum score on an online assessment for “social and environmental performance,” satisfy the requirement that the company integrate B Lab commitments to stakeholders into company governing documents, and pay an annual fee ranging from $500 to $50,000, depending on annual sales.[1]Companies must re-certify every three years to retain their B Corporation status.
As of June 2019, there are over 2,750 certified B Corporations across 150 industries in 64 countries.
via
Some of them I’ve even heard of!
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IFIRC, participation in 4chan and 8chan are free, and both sites are very comfortable about whiney and long winded rants containing misinformation and inaccuracies. Dissension is a totally different matter, and TidBITS always has been a safe haven for reasonable disagreement. And personally speaking, I might be a sarcastic b-word, but a bully I am not. I have a long history in publishing and media, and am a firm believer in “all the news that’s fit to print,” and “without fear or favor,” both of which require a commitment to accuracy and facts.
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So why aren’t you giving equal whining time to Intel, MS, Facebook, Dell, Amazon, Google, HP, IBM, Twitter, GE, LinkedIn, Salesforce, Dropbox, and so many other US and non US corporations that are doing the same Ireland/EU tax stuff Apple does? Whether or not egocentricity is involved, Apple is clearly not the only corporation to take advantage of Ireland’s law, and it is unfair and unjustified to whine just about Apple.
Hey, Alec, you haven’t answered my question: is Steve Jobs a tax criminal?