Google is killing off 1st and 2nd generation Nest Learning Thermostats

The articles I was reading indicate that the Nest Learning Thermostats will still function without access to Google’s servers; there just will be some loss of the “smart” functionality. Users will lose the Nest’s ability to learn and create new schedules on its own, and the Home/Away Assist feature will be completely non-operational. I expect that remote access via the Nest app may also be impaired or removed.

What will be left is still a good, functional programmable thermostat. Users will just have to create and adjust schedules manually. I don’t know if Internet access will still be required; I know that our Nest loses a lot of capability if the WiFi goes down, but I don’t know if that would be mitigated by a signal from the servers Google continues to operate telling the deprecated units, “I can’t do anything for you, but you can still function.”

My experience with Ecobee is mixed. Two years ago, we had to replace our entire HVAC system, and the company we bought from threw in a new smart thermostat for free, with a choice of either Ecobee or Honeywell. I’d heard better things about Ecobee than Honeywell, so we went with that.

It functioned just fine as a programmable thermostat, but it fell down strongly in the “smart” side of functionality. I don’t know if the issues were due to the specific model we got or are common to the entire line, but it had no learning capability at all—we had to manually set up every schedule. It was basically a programmable thermostat with a fancy digital display and remote app access.

What really disappointed us compared to the Nest was the Home/Away function. Nests can determine who’s home by checking the locations of phones in the household that have the app installed and registered as part of the household. This works pretty well when everyone in the household carries their phones with them everywhere, as we do.

The Ecobee, on the other hand, relies on sensors to determine if anyone’s home. One is built into the thermostat unit itself, and it comes with a single additional sensor. More sensors cost a hundred bucks for a 2-pack. Despite claims I’ve seen from Ecobee, my experience with these “SmartSensors” indicates that they rely almost entirely on motion and have little to no heat-sensing capability.

This led to an issue because of my sleep schedule. My sleep tends to be erratic, and I usually don’t go to bed until hours after midnight and then sleep until late morning. Even with the sensor in my bedroom pointed directly at my side of the bed, it didn’t register that I was home because I wasn’t moving. And with only one moveable sensor, when my spouse was working from home, we couldn’t have the sensor detecting both me in the bedroom and her in the home office, and whether either of us happened to be in those locations was variable. My own home office area is in a corner of our living room (I do most of my work after my spouse goes to bed), and the thermostat is in the dining room, meaning that it still couldn’t detect me when I was working less than 4 meters away. Because of this, we had to disable the Home/Away functions and remember to manually adjust it when we left and returned. That should be unnecessary with a smart thermostat.

So I won’t return to Ecobee unless they change the Home/Away function to be able to work from information that’s more reliable and ubiquitous than $50 SmartSensors, or Google kills our third-generation Nest and we can’t find a non-Google device with the same functionality that we’ve become accustomed to with the Nest.

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Yes, that’s fine with me. I never used the learning stuff in the Nests, either. I just set different programs for heating and cooling and used the Eco temperatures for when we are away.

Note that the thermostats can also determine if people are moving around, and the Nest Protects can as well. Well, allegedly - there are a lot of false positives (e.g., it think it sees people moving when nobody is home.) I stopped using phone location pretty quickly for this; I was never wild about letting Google know exactly where we were all the time, so I just manually set Home and Away. It’s incredibly simple to do. (In the Nest app - I’m not sure about the Google Home app.)

But can’t it also use HomeKit scenes based on phone location in the Home app? (At least for now, I don’t worry about Apple collecting that data the way that I do about Google.)

Well, I guess I will find out. That’ll be one of my tests.

I’m very much hoping that this actually comes to pass. The Matter standard shows so much promise, and there are some devices, but there’s still a lot of “you need to use our app to access everything”, and many devices have limited to no functionality if you try to lock them down on your network.

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What I’d really like to have in a thermostat is a reliable geofencing handled by the Apple Home hub(s). They can theoretically tell if the phones are within a geofence, and they should be able to control the thermostats based on the geofence. I hadn’t thought about it until now, but that would be kind of a compelling use case. I’m tempted to try it out, but my home is rarely empty as I work remotely.

This was easier than I thought - although I don’t know how reliable it will be in practice. This relies on the HomeKit automation functionality, but it can control the thermostats.

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Early in Nest’s life, I was considering purchasing one of their thermostats, but when Google bought them out, I turned my back on the idea. I have no connection to Google at all: no Google accounts, no Google devices, don’t use Chrome, don’t use Google for search, much less AI chat. I prefer to use hardware that isn’t a front for a corporation that considers the customer to be the product.

Fortunately(?), about the time that Google devoured Nest, my heat pump died. The replacement came with a color-LCD display thermostat that I use only for scheduled pre-sets, since any more “modern” functionality (e.g. remote control via smartphone or computer) required some hilariously intrusive ToCs, such as giving the vendor the right to browse my browsing history (!). As the great line in The Man Who Would Be King went, “Not bloody likely!”

Well, yes, but that’s of secondary value to us compared to the ability to use phone location (which I didn’t say was the only way Nest determines it; I was contrasting that Nest can use phone location while Ecobee appears to use only sensors). My details regarding my experiences with the Ecobee sensors pretty well explain why I don’t want to rely on sensors only for any thermostat with Home/Away features.

I wouldn’t know. I never connected it to HomeKit, because our thermostat is literally the only “smart” device in our home. We don’t use smart speakers, smart locks, smart cameras, smart doorbells, smart bulbs, or any kind of home hub. We used just Ecobee’s own app, which doesn’t have the ability to use location for Home/Away. In fact, because we don’t have any other smart devices, we never even considered using HomeKit with either thermostat.

We must remember…google services are mostly free and that make us the users the product. Despite their motto…Google is evil and making money by selling user data and info is the reason they exist these days. I use as little of their services as I can get away with and never stay logged in to any of their services or subsidiaries.

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Case in point: try to get punched cards or a new punch machine these days. Or paper tape. Or 1/2" 9 track magtape. Or…

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I’ve long had a policy of not trusting the cloud, either due to security (well until we have usable homomorphic encryption), or just the reliability of the underlying service provider. That doesn’t mean not using the cloud or cloud connected devices, but always keep in mind that someone else is going to determine when they stop working, take over ownership of your PIA, etc. So have a contingency plan!

As a longtime activist consumer, I share my plan: As that expiration deadline nears, I’m gonna call/chat/email Google and remind them that …

“I’m a monthly Nest Aware subscriber partly because of that first Nest thermostat. If Google doesn’t replace my Nests with freebies, I’ll be looking to leave the Google ecosystem altogether. So … what’ll it be, Google?”

The Google-approved replacement for the Nest Smoke Detector is made by First Alert:

It’s not an exact replacement, however (there’s no nightlight, for one thing).

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It’s only available for pre-order right now. I imagine they will be available soon, but many of my Protects expire in July.

May I just say as the owner of two of these things: This sucks.

An update: I tried to set up the Ecobee and it said it would not work with our system. That seems weird - it’s standard H and W heating system thermostat wiring - but perhaps I didn’t select those two wires when I went through the setup?

So I ordered three Nest Learning thermostats, and just installed two of them today. I’ll do the third, which controls the AC for the house, on a cooler day, when the AC isn’t running. But these thermostats are also Matter devices, so presumably I could add them to HomeKit if I decide to move away from Google Home.

This is another weirdness, by the way - my Nest E thermostat and Nest third generation can only be scheduled using the Nest app, and show up in both the Nest and Google Home apps, but the new Nest Gen 4 thermostats only show up in the Google Home app. And while the other two show up in the Google Home app, but there is no option to schedule them there. Typical Google weirdness I guess. I suspect that the Nest app will be sunsetted soon and all devices will need to be managed in Google Home. Yes, we have five thermostats - two for the zones that existed when we bought the house (“downstairs” and “upstairs”), then three more zones added, two with floor radiant heat (“family room” and “Sun room”) and another heating zone upstairs when we added on to the house.

I did buy the cheaper Nest Protects, five from Google’s offer and one from Amazon, to replace the six in our main home that will expire this summer. I’ll install them pretty soon. The summer house has five wired Nest Protects, four of which expire this year, and one battery-powered Nest Protect that expires next year, so I’ll either go with the First Alert devices, or look for something else - perhaps HomeKit, perhaps something else, but definitely something that can alert me to an issue when I am not there, and I am not 9-10 months of the year.

I’ve also ordered a Starling Home Hub that allows Nest devices - particularly cameras - to be used in HomeKit and to use HomeKit secure video, so I can drop the Nest Aware subscription. My wife and I both have iPhones and already have some HomeKit devices, in both houses, with automations that run consistently well, so I’m hoping that this works for us.

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Would be very interested in your experience with the Starling Home Hub, once you get a chance to “kick the tires”.
In particular, if it truly allows the cameras to save to HomeKit secure video without also sending the data to Google.
Although I’m also interested to see if the new Nest thermostats with Matter support will work “natively” (or at least relatively so) in the Home app, without needing to use the Google Home app.
I’m continually trying to come up with ways to avoid sending any data to 3rd parties while maintaining useful functionality. I have a certain amount of trust for the Apple ecosystem, and the HSV is supposed to be device encrypted. I don’t trust any of the other 3rd party vendors. I’ve thought about Unifi protect, since that’s all stored locally, but it would be challenging to get the house rewired for it. The next house is going to have ethernet drops for distribution and PoE security devices.

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I completely mis-read Starling’s feature set. It can set Nest and Google Home cameras to homekit secure video, but that still requires having a Nest Aware subscription.

I’m probably going to keep the box, as it allows me to use HomeKit to set thermostats when I am away from home rather than the Nest app, which can be flaky, or the Google Home app, which isn’t the best app for this. But it does not end Nest Aware, which I will probably use for one more year (this year at the lower end of the subscription) and will take the time over the next 14 months (my Nest Aware renews in July) to replace my two doorbells and my two Nest cameras with HomeKit devices that can do HomeKit secure video so I can cancel the subscription.

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