Bizarre login problems with new iMac

I just got a 27 inch iMac (2019) which I promptly stuffed with 128GB of RAM, with the wireless extended keyboard and touch pad. 2TB SSD. Mojave 10.14.6 as supplied from Apple. The behavior I’m about to describe occurred even with the stock 8GB RAM the machine came with, as well as using a wired keyboard I had laying around.

Login behavior following a restart or from power-up is bizarre: the cursor in the password entry box blinks at about twice the normal rate, and characters typed in are erratically ignored, resulting in multiple attempts to successfully log in. If I carefully observe the input box, I can see where the “dot” character is not produced, and can then type the correct key a second time (sometimes more) until the dot shows. This can happen one or more times, it occurs in different places for my passphrase, but always includes the first character, and then a varying number of subsequent characters. My passphrase is longer than the input box so for the last six characters or so I’m just winging it, but the problem usually occurs earlier in the passphrase.

Problem occurs every time for a restart or startup from shut down. Problem does NOT occur when unlocking the machine following sleep or initiated screen lock. Problem occurs during safe boot (which is hard to initiate since Macs no longer have a startup bong?). Uninstalled Little Snitch to eliminate it a possible problem; issue still occurs.

This Mac replaces a late 2013 27 inch iMac.

I would greatly appreciate any insight or ideas before I engage Apple…thanks!

When you tried the wired keyboard, did you also turn the wireless keyboard OFF?

It sounds like what can happen when an extra attached wired keyboard attached accidentally [ahem] has a pile of papers weighing down on the keys [cough], and extra input is being sent.

I would switch off all paired Bluetooth devices, and try just the (known good) wired keyboard again; you may have another wireless device (the fast blinking cursor makes it sound like erratic mouse clicks) sending errant input.

A PRAM/NVRAM and SMC Reset are also worth trying.

Please keep us updated.

[edit: forgot to clarify that your wireless mouse and/or keyboard are suspect; also any nearby input devices, though typically they would need to have been paired. But Macs will search for nearby Bluetooth devices during sStartup, even if not previously paired]

3 Likes

I thought I had tried the wired keyboard with the wireless one off, but after reading frederico’s post I decided to retry in a more methodical fashion. I also have multiple Bluetooth devices in my work space including another wireless extended keyboard so I took care to turn off anything sending/receiving Bluetooth. I also unplugged all USB peripherals.

The wired keyboard worked like a champ. It kept working as I turned on the magic trackpad, then the new wireless keyboard. The wireless keyboard now worked but with the quirk of requiring two or three strokes of the initial character of my passphrase—however, there was no random character generation or deletion as noted in my original post. Cursor blinked at the normal rate. This behavior was consistent during many restart cycles: wired keyboard worked perfectly, wireless keyboard worked fine after typing 1st character twice or three times (never typing once, never typing more than three times). I would just watch the input text box for the first “•” to show up then entered phrase as usual.

This behavior was consistent even after turning on other computer’s keyboard/touch pad and powering up. So far, so good. Then, I plugged my USB peripherals back in: a digital feed to the preamplifier in my stereo, an external drive, and a USB hub. Problem returned! Rapidly blinking cursor, random character generation, nearly impossible to log in.

I unplugged the hub (which was carrying a turned-off hard drive and a lightning connector not plugged into anything) and the problem disappeared. I confirmed with a few restart cycles with the hub unplugged and plugged in. The hub is a powered (has its own wall wart) USB 3.0 model made by Tripp Lite, which worked fine with my 2013 iMac. The problem occurred only (and always) with the hub plugged in.

Having a USB hub “cause” problems with typing in a password using a wireless keyboard does not make sense to me but there you have it—I cycled multiple times and am convinced. I’ll try a couple of other hubs I have but I’m not going to waste much time on this.

Having to type the initial character more than once to get the entry to “take” is also not optimal but I can live with it, given the tradeoff in time/trouble likely to be incurred in running the issue down with Apple vs. likelihood of resolution, as compared to the relatively infrequent need to reboot or power up. Many thanks to frederico for the response and suggestions!

1 Like

Sounds like radio interference. Might be as simple as getting a new hub.

I recall hearing something similar not too long ago IIRC related to display hubs and wifi interference.

Oh, gosh, I’m so sorry; in my head I read that you’d already stripped/isolated peripherals down to just the keyboard and mouse. Thankfully you were smart enough to get there despite my oversight.

As for bad USB hubs and devices, they are far more common than I’d like or most would think. They are mere serial devices, different from old serial in the most basic sense in that they are powered (in part) via the host bus.

A hub (or devices) can inject all kinds of noise into a host or companion(s) on the same bus; so I’m not in the least surprised (other than it being a Tripp Lite brand).

That said, don’t be so quick to condemn the hub itself:

— you don’t explicitly state so, but I presume you stripped the hub of even its unused Lightning cable, yes? They have micro controllers that I’ve first hand seen cause a kernel panic each and every time it was attached to a lesser quality host.

— the power supply itself would typically be more suspect than the hub, especially typical “wall wart” (always-on) style adapters, as opposed to an actual switching power supply (goes to very low power when not in use; also often providing power filtering). Power adapters of both kinds can go bad, and provide “dirty” power injection if the hub doesn’t have proper filtering (either AC or DC).

If you can, find another power supply of the proper voltage/connector (be certain to test for polarity!!) with which to test.

— Did you perhaps change your power supply(ies) configurations when swapping in the new iMac? Sometimes a vulnerable device or power supply is badly affected by sharing a power source with a dirty device; e.g., we used to go crazy trying to keep people from plugging in very noisy (dirty) fluorescent lamps/ballasts on the same circuit/outlet/power strip, and then they’d have all kinds of nasty crashes, audible noise coming from speakers, etc. This continues today with crappy AC/DC power adapters for chargers, LED lamps, smart outlets, and more.

Try isolating the hub’s power to an outlet that isn’t hosting the iMac or anything else connected to it; even considering running an extension cord from a known-separate circuit.

— as noted above, radio interference is still possible; is the hub newly located, or just generally located near anything generating RF? Other bad power adapters, unshielded devices (like the now infamous gen 1 LG 5K that whacked WiFi), etc. Can create RF that makes the hub look bad. Just because your old iMac wasn’t vulnerable to the noise, perhaps your new iMac is far more sensitive to line noise.

— any change in connected cables to or from the hub? A cheap cable, or one whose shielding has gone bad, or has been extended with a USB-A/C male/female has been known to cause problems.

— as for the Apple Wireless still requiring three keystrokes, this isn’t normal, either; nor would I find it acceptable. Can you try tapping any keys while it is still booting up, showing progress bar, but before login, and still see the need for three taps before the first character is accepted?

Better still, can you navigate the login screen (Tab, Escape, Space, Return/Enter, alpha-select, arrows, etc.) reliably, before the actual password field is in focus (you may need to create a second user so you are greeted with the choice screen) without touching a mouse or other pointer, without dropping any keystrokes? If yes, is the password field still dropping keystrokes?

My thinking here is that the keyboard is “sleeping” and not handshaking with the iMac properly until you tap it an extra two times. Perhaps first establishing there’s a valid connection first will help narrow it down further.

— fwiw, I’ve had trouble on an older iMac since High Sierra where the cursor and focus appears to be in the password field, where it should land automatically, but really isn’t, and I have to actually click on the password field with a pointing device, or Tab into the field before it will take keystrokes. Maybe try this?

I’m sure there’s more we can do to nail this down, if you’re not bored with the issue at this point.

Cheers

F

1 Like

Wow! That’s quite the to-do list you’ve assigned me! :smiley:

Given that you’ve put so much thought into your replies and the fact that there might be some general interest in the subject, and the fact that I’d also like to fully understand what’s going on, I’ll do my best to try out the permutations you’ve suggested and will post the results here. Will probably take me a day or two.

thanks,
Mark

1 Like

Wireless keyboard handshaking

as for the Apple Wireless still requiring three keystrokes, this isn’t normal…Can you try tapping any keys while it is still booting up, showing progress bar, but before login, and still see the need for three taps before the first character is accepted?

I don’t get a progress bar until after login. Since the reboot is speedy, I needed a way to determine when the USB bus goes active so I plugged in an old, transparent wired mouse where I could easily observe its red light. I found that I had to enter at least one keystroke during the period between the light coming back on after reboot and login screen appears in order for my first character in the password box to be accepted. It did not matter which keystroke I used, but at least one had to be made in order to enable the first password character to be accepted.

Better still, can you navigate the login screen (Tab, Escape, Space, Return/Enter, alpha-select, arrows, etc.) reliably, before the actual password field is in focus (you may need to create a second user so you are greeted with the choice screen) without touching a mouse or other pointer, without dropping any keystrokes? If yes, is the password field still dropping keystrokes?

I enabled the guest account so that choice of logins are presented. I selected my login by using a cursor key but I had to type it at least twice before the login icon was selected. After hitting return, I could enter my passphrase with no problems.

fwiw, I’ve had trouble on an older iMac since High Sierra where the cursor and focus appears to be in the password field, where it should land automatically, but really isn’t, and I have to actually click on the password field with a pointing device, or Tab into the field before it will take keystrokes. Maybe try this?

I had to click with the touch pad in order to activate the pointer (touchpad would not move the pointer otherwise). Clicking the text input box was not successful; I still had to type a character twice before the input “took.”

As a control test, I ran testing with a wired keyboard with all nearby Bluetooth transceivers disabled. There were no problems logging in with the wired keyboarad.

My guess is that something is preventing a successful handshake during restart until I “wake it up” with extra keystrokes. Any ideas?

As far as powered USB hub is concerned, I have many, many external power supplies (wall warts). I’m working on testing these now…

1 Like

If I read your report properly, it sounds like both keyboard and trackpad are “unresponsive” until either at least a single click or keystroke is registered; this would lean towards the iMac as Bluetooth host that is faulty, rather than two devices being equally unreliable, wouldn’t you agree?

And I assume all this testing is done with absolutely no USB hubs or other unnecessary peripherals; just iMac, keyboard and mouse/trackpad? As for your other power adapters, they should be irrelevant if this is true. If the keyboard and mouse behave without USB or other devices attached/paired, then this is still worth pursuing.

If not, if this strange handshake issue continues when isolated, then, ideally, taking the two bluetooth peripherals to test in a similar manner on another Mac would quickly affirm this. Lacking that, or as a result of said confirmation, they next thing would be to make sure nothing is loading or preventing early loading of the bluetooth kext. Any chance you have any third party software, such as third party peripherals (Wacom, Logitech, Kensington, printers, scanners, etc.), that might be delaying connection with the keyboard/trackpad? Bluetooth speakers? AirPods? Apple Watch? Most of these items should be visible in System Preferences->Bluetooth->Devices, but sometimes third parties think they are above that and run their own prefs/apps.

I would try to unpair anything other than keyboard and trackpad, and then even the trackpad, to isolate the wireless keyboard, and vice versa; this would then also help relieve blame on either device.

If nothing is revealed, you may be looking at a “dirty” reinstallation of macOS; no data will be lost, but all the system components will be reinstalled. It generally takes well under an hour on an SSD-equippped iMac.

Please confirm whether we are chasing a handshake with isolated bluetooth-paired only, or if we are trying to figure out specifically why the USB hub is at fault.

Cheers

F

1 Like

Background: problems have been noted with wireless keyboard entry upon restart and boot on my new 2019 27” 5k iMac (“iMac19”). I have my older 2013 27” iMac (“iMac13”) on a nearby table while I am making a transition onto the new machine. It is equipped with a new wireless extended keyboard that is the same model as the keyboard provided with iMac19. While iMac19 was supplied with a new Magic Trackpad (wireless, extended white surface), iMac13 uses the older, smaller aluminum wireless trackpad.

The original problem I posted here about was what now seems to be random “hash” being generated in the login text box when restarting or booting up from power down. This made logging in very difficult and subject to frequent failure (generating alarming notes about resetting my password by nuking my system, etc :smiley:), which is a fairly serious issue.

Thanks to frederico’s suggestions, I was able to isolate the problem to a powered USB hub I was using. Once that was removed from the system, I had no problem logging into iMac19 (except as noted below…). The garbled, random generation of characters in the login box problem was solved, though I have not tried to troubleshoot the USB hub issue further as yet, by following up on trying different power supplies etc.

Now, I was left with the situation that while text box entry was now stable, it takes two or three keyboard strokes (or two or three trackpad clicks) to apparently establish handshaking between iMac19 and my wireless entry devices.

Since after the garbled entry problem was fixed I had added a passive USB hub that did not appear to present problems, I moved forward; but given the most recent posting by frederico, I decided to unambiguously establish a baseline by unplugging ALL peripherals and powering down ALL nearby Bluetooth devices, so that only the keyboard, trackpad, and iMac19 itself would be active/turned on. I use no third party extensions and all Bluetooth devices (iPhone, stereo preamp, iMac13, iMac13 wireless input devices, 2009 Mac Pro) were shut down/turned off.

With only iMac19 and its wireless input devices on, I had to type 2 or 3 characters to (apparently) establish handshaking with the keyboard, and/or click the trackpad two or three times to gain pointer control. Every time, whether restarting or booting up from full power down. (Unlocking the screen from sleep or screen saver has not presented any problems)

I then turned off the keyboard and trackpad and plugged in older, wired devices (keyboard and mouse). In every case, these devices were immediately available with no “handshaking” needed.

On a hunch, I repeated the above tests with iMac13 (the older computer) and guess what? The results were EXACTLY THE SAME. Same need to establish an apparent handshake between the wireless input devices and the computer. Same instant response with wired input devices. Same model keyboards between both computers; different trackpads, but both original Apple.

Thinking back (not that easy, given the ongoing trauma of changing platforms and having these issues occur), I realize that I’ve had the handshaking issue with iMac13 before I even bought iMac19. It just didn’t bother me as I don’t restart or reboot very often. The garbled entry on the login box on iMac19 is what popped this handshaking issue up.

When you say “dirty reinstallation of MacOS,” do you mean just doing a new install directly from Software Update without wiping the drive for a “clean” install? Is this step, in your opinion, indicated by my testing results?

Thanks for ongoing help!

So very sorry I’ve been totally out of commission the past few weeks; still recovering. I’m writing myself a reminder to readdress this mystery when I’m on fewer narcotics. :face_with_head_bandage::face_with_thermometer::drooling_face::crazy_face::dizzy_face:

1 Like

Feel better and get well soon. Your help and opinions are valuable.

1 Like

I recalled you mentioning elsewhere that you were dealing with issues. You’ve been extremely helpful in guiding me to a point where I know at some level basically what is going on, and that I can now reliably log in with no errors by watching the “handshake thing.” Previously, I was extremely frustrated at being borderline locked out of my brand new computer but you helped me out of that.

No problem letting this issue sit for awhile. I’ve got my hands full helping family members etc. deal with Safari 13, iOS 13.x.x.x.x, and not installing Catalina. And I’m still working on transferring to my new computer.

You have my sincere best wishes! Get better soon…

About a year ago I had a problem with my ancient MacBook Pro. The minute I turned it on it kept endlessly rebooting Even the chord sounded angry. After disconnecting the keyboard and about a million other things and had just about given it up for dead once the battery burned down, I brought it over to my husband’s desk for him to look at it. It returned to sanity once it was disconnected from an even more ancient Seagate drive. If you haven’t tried disconnecting everything all at once, it might help.