new photo file formats minimal coverage?

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new photo file formats minimal coverage?

David Nuss
Howdy!

I thought I read, in some of the WWDC coverage, that iOS 11 is introducing new photo and video file formats.

This would seem to be a big deal, ie removing a cd/dvd drive, removing an analog headset jack, etc.

But have not seen any follow on coverage.

Perhaps I misunderstood the story, and can’t find it again.

If iDevices on iOS 11 are not using jpg for stills or the up til now standard video format any more, isn’t that a big deal? Is it a means for Apple to force users into storing photos online or using Photos app? What does it mean for compatibility with photo editing apps?

I really prefer to manage my own photos, I don’t like that Apple doesn’t allow users to turn off their software analysis and force their Albums to the top in Photos on iDevices… rant over…

dn


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Re: new photo file formats minimal coverage?

Marilyn Matty

>
> This is probably a good move it the long run.  HEIF is much more
> versatile than jpg as well as more efficient.  There will presumably be
> some pain during the transition,
> but probably less than for hardware.  I hope that iOS 11 will let you
> choose which format to use, but I doubt it, since they could be planning
> new camera features that would depend on the efficiency and container
> features.

Is HEID going to be lossier than JPG? How much will image quality be affected when converting from one to the other? And what if I want to email a bunch of photos to Android and PC users? Will batch processing be an option?

At home, I still use Photoshop CS 5. I'm not there now and can't check to see if it handles HIED. I can see why Apple will want to move to a different compression format, but I do hope they have something built into iOS 11 that accommodates people who prefer to shoot at higher resolutions.

Marilyn






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Re: new photo file formats minimal coverage?

Jerome King-2
In reply to this post by David Nuss
Here is a link an associate provided me that gives information

Jerry



On Jun 12, 2017, at 12:45 AM, gastropod <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Sun, Jun 11, 2017, at 08:55 PM, David Nuss wrote:

I thought I read, in some of the WWDC coverage, that iOS 11 is
introducing new photo and video file formats.

This would seem to be a big deal, ie removing a cd/dvd drive, removing an
analog headset jack, etc.

But have not seen any follow on coverage.
...
If iDevices on iOS 11 are not using jpg for stills or the up til now
standard video format any more, isn’t that a big deal? Is it a means for
Apple to force users into storing photos online or using Photos app? What
does it mean for compatibility with photo editing apps?

They'll be moving to HEVC (High Efficiency Video Coding) for video, and
HEIF (High Efficiency Image File Format) for still/gif  images.  HEIF is
a subset of HEVC, and both are from the MPEG group, so they're
standards, not Apple proprietary.  I've looked a bit to see if there are
patent or license issues, but didn't see anything, so I ass-u-me that
decoding at least should be free.   It was said in the keynote that you
can still share to older standards e.g. for social sites.    It will be
interesting to see how Apple handles it.  For bulk conversion to
software that can't read the new formats (Aperture, sigh), we may need
to add a decoding step to the workflow.

The official HEIF site:

https://nokiatech.github.io/heif/

Tech info:

https://nokiatech.github.io/heif/technical.html

This is probably a good move it the long run.  HEIF is much more
versatile than jpg as well as more efficient.  There will presumably be
some pain during the transition,
but probably less than for hardware.  I hope that iOS 11 will let you
choose which format to use, but I doubt it, since they could be planning
new camera features that would depend on the efficiency and container
features.

--
gastropod



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Re: new photo file formats minimal coverage?

Curtis Wilcox
In reply to this post by Marilyn Matty
On Jun 12, 2017, at 9:41 AM, Marilyn Matty <[hidden email]> wrote:

Is HEID going to be lossier than JPG? How much will image quality be affected when converting from one to the other? And what if I want to email a bunch of photos to Android and PC users? Will batch processing be an option?

At home, I still use Photoshop CS 5. I'm not there now and can't check to see if it handles HIED. I can see why Apple will want to move to a different compression format, but I do hope they have something built into iOS 11 that accommodates people who prefer to shoot at higher resolutions.

According to the Nokiatech page and Wikipedia, HEIF* is a container format, not a compression format. Confusingly, the HEIF filename extension is usually .heic but can be .heif. The compression used within the container is actually HEVC (aka H.265), it's surprising to me that a video compression format that's known for making files smaller by compressing between frames would also be better for still images, at least the samples in the 9to5mac article look better (maybe the JPEG is treated more like a thumbnail and not a fair comparison). As a container format, HEIF could also support other codecs in the future.


For people not using current image editing software, the change could be a hassle. Making a fake .heic file on my Mac, I don't have any software that to open such files (including Pixelmator and Photoshop CC 2017).




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Re: new photo file formats minimal coverage?

Roger Henriques
I also have Acorn, but I see no mention of HEIC on their site. So if I or one of my clients takes a photo on their new iPhone, I can’t edit it for printing?

Looks like Apple is once again ignoring the pro market - if PS CC2017 won’t open the files, what professional image editor will?

Roger H.
[hidden email]




> On 12-06-2017, at 11:48 AM, Curtis Wilcox <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> For people not using current image editing software, the change could be a hassle. Making a fake .heic file on my Mac, I don't have any software that to open such files (including Pixelmator and Photoshop CC 2017).




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Re: new photo file formats minimal coverage?

James Arnold
Not just the pro market but anybody who takes pics with a camera that is not attached to their phone.  I download jpeg images from my Olympus camera straight onto my iPad for editing (via wifi) - I no longer use any kind of traditional computer. I really don't want all ready compressed images compressed again.  I imagine I will be holding off on upgrading until this gets sorted out.
James Arnold
Sent from my iPad

> On Jun 12, 2017, at 9:32 AM, Roger Henriques <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I also have Acorn, but I see no mention of HEIC on their site. So if I or one of my clients takes a photo on their new iPhone, I can’t edit it for printing?
>
> Looks like Apple is once again ignoring the pro market - if PS CC2017 won’t open the files, what professional image editor will?
>
> Roger H.
> [hidden email]
>
>
>
>
>> On 12-06-2017, at 11:48 AM, Curtis Wilcox <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> For people not using current image editing software, the change could be a hassle. Making a fake .heic file on my Mac, I don't have any software that to open such files (including Pixelmator and Photoshop CC 2017).
>
>
>
>
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Re: new photo file formats minimal coverage?

Curtis Wilcox
This is only about video and images iOS devices create themselves, not converting everything that appears on the device. It also hasn't happened yet, it will be in iOS 11. According to the 9to5mac article, the beta has an option to choose between High Efficiency (HEVC, HEIF) and Most Compatible (h.264, JPEG).

One justification for the software subscription model Adobe has adopted is faster availability of features like support for newer file formats. We'll see if they deliver.

Note the iPhone 6 and newer already uses HEVC for FaceTime. My hunch is any previous iOS device (e.g. iPhone 5s) either won't have the High Efficiency option or shouldn't use it because it lacks a hardware chip for encoding/decoding (therefore it would be slow and a battery drain).

> On Jun 12, 2017, at 2:08 PM, James Arnold <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Not just the pro market but anybody who takes pics with a camera that is not attached to their phone.  I download jpeg images from my Olympus camera straight onto my iPad for editing (via wifi) - I no longer use any kind of traditional computer. I really don't want all ready compressed images compressed again.  I imagine I will be holding off on upgrading until this gets sorted out.
> James Arnold
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Jun 12, 2017, at 9:32 AM, Roger Henriques <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I also have Acorn, but I see no mention of HEIC on their site. So if I or one of my clients takes a photo on their new iPhone, I can’t edit it for printing?
>>
>> Looks like Apple is once again ignoring the pro market - if PS CC2017 won’t open the files, what professional image editor will?
>>
>> Roger H.
>> [hidden email]
>>
>>
>>> On 12-06-2017, at 11:48 AM, Curtis Wilcox <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> For people not using current image editing software, the change could be a hassle. Making a fake .heic file on my Mac, I don't have any software that to open such files (including Pixelmator and Photoshop CC 2017).




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Re: new photo file formats minimal coverage?

Zeedar Marc-2

> On Jun 12, 2017, at 1:19 PM, Curtis Wilcox <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> This is only about video and images iOS devices create themselves, not converting everything that appears on the device.

Exactly. I would suspect that when you share an image or video, it's automatically converted to something more compatible. Probably most users won't even notice there's anything different (except for the increased storage space).


Marc Zeedar
Publisher, xDev Magazine and xDevLibrary
www.xdevmag.com | www.xdevlibrary.com







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Re: new photo file formats minimal coverage?

adamengst
Administrator

On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 4:33 PM, Zeedar Marc <[hidden email]> wrote:
> This is only about video and images iOS devices create themselves, not converting everything that appears on the device.

Exactly. I would suspect that when you share an image or video, it's automatically converted to something more compatible. Probably most users won't even notice there's anything different (except for the increased storage space).

This is the sort of benefit that Apple can extract from complete control over iOS. That retentiveness can be annoying at times, but it has upsides too.

cheers... -Adam 




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Re: new photo file formats minimal coverage?

Marilyn Matty
In reply to this post by Roger Henriques

> On Jun 12, 2017, at 12:32 PM, Roger Henriques <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Looks like Apple is once again ignoring the pro market - if PS CC2017 won’t open the files, what professional image editor will?

This has me stumped. From what I've read about the new iPad Pros, they're positioned to go after creative professionals and to aim a good kick in the butt to Surface. Though the iPad Pros aren't being as aggressively pitched as replacements for Macs as Surfaces are for traditional PCs, Apple istouting a more Mac-like file system, multitasking in split screen, super responsive latency time that should give a big advantage to the Apple Pencil, etc.

Many creatives do like to shoot photos on their iPhones or iPads on the fly, and having to unwrap images either before or after they mess around with them, or transfer them to a Mac, will be a PITA.

Marilyn



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Re: new photo file formats minimal coverage?

Marilyn Matty

Thanks for the good analysis. I'm convinced Apple made a smart decion.

Marilyn

> On Jun 13, 2017, at 12:16 AM, gastropod <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Jun 12, 2017, at 07:36 PM, Marilyn Matty wrote:
>>
>> Many creatives do like to shoot photos on their iPhones or iPads on the
>> fly, and having to unwrap images either before or after they mess around
>> with them, or transfer them to a Mac, will be a PITA.
>
> You wouldn't have to transfer to a mac to edit them.  There will be APIs
> that should be pretty easy for third party software to access images in
> whichever format.  And of course Apple tools won't have problems with
> it.  If you share, Apple will invisibly do the transcoding to a
> traditional format.
>
> I think it's much too early to worry.  It's not an Apple thing, but a
> standard that video producers and web people are already interested and
> invested in (much smaller files providing much faster load times, and
> with better detail.)  The video part (HEVC) is already supported in some
> TVs and Netflix already takes advantage of it in many cases.  Apple's
> getting into it will probably give the whole thing a push just like
> their diving into USB did, especially for the still image HEIF.  And it
> sounds like there will be an option of whether to use the new formats or
> not so if you want you can wait for the ecosystem to mature.
>
> There's open source code available for how to handle the files even
> without hardware de/encoding, so there's no reason for desktop photo
> software developers not to be working on it now.  For newer macs/iThings
> with hardware decoding, it should be pretty easy.  It's a complex file
> container/format in some ways, so I don't expect full-feature handling
> such as multiple images per file (focus stacks, storing editing info
> with the original, etc) at the launch of iOS 11, but the basics should
> be there.
>
> For pros, depending on what they're pro at, iOS jpgs don't cut it
> anyway.  Apple's trade off for file size vs quality is horribly
> over-compressed with jpg artifacts all over the place.  Ok for web use
> if you don't crop much, but usually not for printing at typical framed
> sizes.  Allowing raw format was a great step forward, so at least
> there's now the option of getting full resolution (and full editability)
> out of the newer iOS cameras. I'd be very surprised if that went away,
> though it's possible that it will eventually be packaged up inside an
> heif container.
>
> Workflow may


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