Sierra now, or High Sierra later? (2010 MBP 17-inch)

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Sierra now, or High Sierra later? (2010 MBP 17-inch)

Mark D. McKean
(This question is primarily for those who've been using the High Sierra
beta and are familiar with the changes in it from Sierra.)

Short form: Will I be better off upgrading my 2010 17-inch MBP from
Yosemite to Sierra now, and then moving to High Sierra later, or staying
on Yosemite until I'm ready to upgrade to High Sierra?

Long form: I'm desperately trying to keep my aging 17-inch MacBook Pro
(Mid-2010) going in the hopes that Apple will finally acknowledge the
growing chunk of us who need portable machines with physically large
screens and reintroduce the 17-incher by the time this machine is no
longer viable. (I know, not likely to happen. But no one thought Apple
would admit they screwed up by ignoring the pro users, and yet they did.
So it may happen.)

I've kept this MBP on Yosemite, intending to up it to El Capitan or
Sierra once I could justify it. Having recently swapped in a new battery
and a 1TB internal SSD (to replace the terminally-ill 500GB HD it came
with), I think I've finally got enough performance to spare to be worth
trying to upgrade to a more current version of OS X/macOS. (I maxed out
the RAM years ago at 8GB, and the SSD makes that less important anyway.
There really isn't anything else of value hardware-wise I could do
except add faster external ports via the ExpressCard slot, and that's
not a priority.)

I've been checking out various sites around the web for advice on the
actual upgrade, and I think that I'm ready for it software-wise. What
I'm trying to figure out now is which version to take it to.

My thought is that going to El Capitan would probably be pointless,
unless the performance suffers too much under Sierra. (I downloaded an
El Capitan installer from the MAS over a year ago, so getting that
installer would not be a problem if I needed it.) I have seen reports
that some 2010 and older MBPs don't do well under Sierra, but it seems
to be hit or miss, and I haven't noticed any consistent pattern to which
ones don't do well. But El Capitan wouldn't add much benefit for me over
Yosemite, from what I've seen, in exchange for the added security
hassles that were introduced. So if Sierra/High Sierra runs like a slug,
I figure I may as well stick with Yosemite.

But I don't know if it would be better to go ahead and switch to Sierra
now, assuming performance is acceptable, or wait for the .1 release of
High Sierra before doing any upgrade. (I never upgrade to the .0 release
of a new OS version. In my experience, .0 is really the final,
widest-release beta.) The largest concern in my mind is the transition
from HFS+ to APFS.

As I understand it, APFS is supposed to be spaceworthy for the official
release of High Sierra, and it's apparently a one-way conversion (as on
iOS 10); I don't know what its current status under the High Sierra beta
is. I already know that the security changes from Yosemite to El
Capitan/Sierra are going to take some effort and tweaking to get
integrated into my processes. (I'm a mid-grade power user, comfortable
with the command line but not quite fluent in it; I have no qualms about
tinkering under the hood to make things work the way I want them to, and
I know what precautions to take and which things to just not mess with
at all. So the tweaking itself isn't a problem for me.)

Would it be easier or better for me to take care of those adjustments
before converting to APFS by upgrading to Sierra now and then High
Sierra and APFS later? Or should I just wait for an appropriate release
of High Sierra and do all the adjustments at once? Or am I fooling
myself into thinking this machine won't choke on Sierra?

Mark D. McKean
[hidden email]





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Re: Sierra now, or High Sierra later? (2010 MBP 17-inch)

Al Varnell
On Mon, Aug 07, 2017 at 09:06 PM, Mark D. McKean wrote:
>
> (This question is primarily for those who've been using the High Sierra
> beta and are familiar with the changes in it from Sierra.)

You are asking folks to violate their promise to Apple that they would not reveal anything regarding their use of the High Sierra beta. Seems to be increasingly common these days for a persons' promises to be meaningless, but if I were using it I certainly would never go back on my word.

Most of what is publicly known can be found on the High Sierra Preview site <https://www.apple.com/macos/high-sierra-preview/>. There are more details about specific features available from various WWDC17 sessions, but to me it all boils down to two main thrusts.

- Refinement of macOS Sierra. There were and still are a lot of rough spots in Sierra, so the development team was asked to slow down, minimize new features and smooth out the computing experience. So even though you will see a few new features introduced, they have been purposely minimized this time around. Not to the same extent as Snow Leopard was to Leopard, but a similar idea.

- Technology advances to lay the ground work for future innovation. The OS has become somewhat stagnant in order to retain backward compatibility with things like 32-bit apps, the HFS+ file format and a variety of failing security protocols.. Many under-the-hood things need to change in order move forward in years to come.

If you haven't watched the WWDC17 Keynote, skip forward to about the 22 minute mark and listen to the details.
<https://www.apple.com/apple-events/june-2017/>

> Short form: Will I be better off upgrading my 2010 17-inch MBP from
> Yosemite to Sierra now, and then moving to High Sierra later, or staying
> on Yosemite until I'm ready to upgrade to High Sierra?

Yosemite was by far the most troublesome OS X I've had the displeasure of using, so El Camino was a very clear necessity for me. It's still what I rely on for my every day work.  I'm a bit surprised that you didn't give it a try.

> Long form: I'm desperately trying to keep my aging 17-inch MacBook Pro
> (Mid-2010) going in the hopes that Apple will finally acknowledge the
> growing chunk of us who need portable machines with physically large
> screens and reintroduce the 17-incher by the time this machine is no
> longer viable. (I know, not likely to happen. But no one thought Apple
> would admit they screwed up by ignoring the pro users, and yet they did.
> So it may happen.)
>
> I've kept this MBP on Yosemite, intending to up it to El Capitan or
> Sierra once I could justify it. Having recently swapped in a new battery
> and a 1TB internal SSD (to replace the terminally-ill 500GB HD it came
> with), I think I've finally got enough performance to spare to be worth
> trying to upgrade to a more current version of OS X/macOS. (I maxed out
> the RAM years ago at 8GB, and the SSD makes that less important anyway.
> There really isn't anything else of value hardware-wise I could do
> except add faster external ports via the ExpressCard slot, and that's
> not a priority.)
>
> I've been checking out various sites around the web for advice on the
> actual upgrade, and I think that I'm ready for it software-wise. What
> I'm trying to figure out now is which version to take it to.
>
> My thought is that going to El Capitan would probably be pointless,
> unless the performance suffers too much under Sierra. (I downloaded an
> El Capitan installer from the MAS over a year ago, so getting that
> installer would not be a problem if I needed it.) I have seen reports
> that some 2010 and older MBPs don't do well under Sierra, but it seems
> to be hit or miss, and I haven't noticed any consistent pattern to which
> ones don't do well. But El Capitan wouldn't add much benefit for me over
> Yosemite, from what I've seen, in exchange for the added security
> hassles that were introduced. So if Sierra/High Sierra runs like a slug,
> I figure I may as well stick with Yosemite.
>
> But I don't know if it would be better to go ahead and switch to Sierra
> now, assuming performance is acceptable, or wait for the .1 release of
> High Sierra before doing any upgrade. (I never upgrade to the .0 release
> of a new OS version. In my experience, .0 is really the final,
> widest-release beta.) The largest concern in my mind is the transition
> from HFS+ to APFS.
>
> As I understand it, APFS is supposed to be spaceworthy for the official
> release of High Sierra, and it's apparently a one-way conversion (as on
> iOS 10); I don't know what its current status under the High Sierra beta
> is. I already know that the security changes from Yosemite to El
> Capitan/Sierra are going to take some effort and tweaking to get
> integrated into my processes. (I'm a mid-grade power user, comfortable
> with the command line but not quite fluent in it; I have no qualms about
> tinkering under the hood to make things work the way I want them to, and
> I know what precautions to take and which things to just not mess with
> at all. So the tweaking itself isn't a problem for me.)
>
> Would it be easier or better for me to take care of those adjustments
> before converting to APFS by upgrading to Sierra now and then High
> Sierra and APFS later? Or should I just wait for an appropriate release
> of High Sierra and do all the adjustments at once? Or am I fooling
> myself into thinking this machine won't choke on Sierra?
There's an easy way to find out about your last question. Buy an external SSD drive and sign up for the Public Beta. If your MBP is going to choke, you'll know pretty quickly and I'm sure you can find another use for that drive.

If you do think you might want to do an interim stop at Sierra, be sure to download it soon as it won't be available after the day High Sierra is released.

> Mark D. McKean


-Al-
--
Al Varnell
Mountain View, CA







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Re: Sierra now, or High Sierra later? (2010 MBP 17-inch)

@lbutlr
In reply to this post by Mark D. McKean
On Aug 7, 2017, at 10:06 PM, Mark D. McKean <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Short form: Will I be better off upgrading my 2010 17-inch MBP from
> Yosemite to Sierra now, and then moving to High Sierra later, or staying
> on Yosemite until I'm ready to upgrade to High Sierra?

I don't think it really matters one way or the other. The biggest user-facing feature change is APFS which will make your computer faster if you have an SSD.

> (I know, not likely to happen. But no one thought Apple
> would admit they screwed up by ignoring the pro users, and yet they did.
> So it may happen.)

It won't. The 17" was always a low-volume machine and there is very little call from people for a larger machine; quite the opposite, in fact as many people are shying away from the 15" because of its size and a lot of people with the 15" because they need the GPU and/or processing power are not happy with the size and weight. A MBP with an external screen is a desktop-repalcemnt for many people, and the quality of the screen is amazing.

> I've kept this MBP on Yosemite, intending to up it to El Capitan or
> Sierra once I could justify it. Having recently swapped in a new battery
> and a 1TB internal SSD

Then update now to 10.3 beta and APFS. unless this is your only machine in which case wait until a week after 10.13.0 comes out, check the integrity all 5 of your backups, and install High Sierra.

On my machines, 10.13b has been rock solid since beta 2.

> My thought is that going to El Capitan would probably be pointless,

Yes.

> unless the performance suffers too much under Sierra. (I downloaded an
> El Capitan installer from the MAS over a year ago, so getting that
> installer would not be a problem if I needed it.) I have seen reports
> that some 2010 and older MBPs don't do well under Sierra, but it seems
> to be hit or miss, and I haven't noticed any consistent pattern to which
> ones don't do well. But El Capitan wouldn't add much benefit for me over
> Yosemite, from what I've seen, in exchange for the added security
> hassles that were introduced. So if Sierra/High Sierra runs like a slug,
> I figure I may as well stick with Yosemite.

I don't have experience with the 2010. My 2009 is not running Sierra because it can't, and my 2012 is super happy on High Sierra beta.

> In my experience, .0 is really the final, widest-release beta.

This has not been true for a long time. It is prudent to wait a few days, maybe a week, but otherwise there is no reason to avoid .0 releases. Especially with how simple it is to reinstall an older OS.

> The largest concern in my mind is the transition
> from HFS+ to APFS.

Seemless on every machine so far, and the speed difference on the SSD is great. Being able to copy large folders instantaneously❓ That's gold.

I recently copied a 220GB folder, ran a script on the copy to rename all the files to the right pattern, checked the results, and removed the original.

Didn't waste 220GB of drive space and didn't wait around forever while the copy happened.

> As I understand it, APFS is supposed to be spaceworthy for the official
> release of High Sierra, and it's apparently a one-way conversion

Well, sure. Though you can reformat to HFS+.

--
Apple broke AppleScripting signatures in Mail.app, so no random signatures.




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Re: Sierra now, or High Sierra later? (2010 MBP 17-inch)

James R Cutler
In reply to this post by Mark D. McKean
Mark,

It is best to work one problem at a time. Sierra at 10.12.6 is stable, relatively problem free, and different enough from Yosemite to make the upgrading complicated enough. High Sierra is still an unknown quantity and will be so for some months.  

My strong recommendation is to upgrade to Sierra today. 


On Aug 8, 2017, at 12:06 AM, Mark D. McKean <[hidden email]> wrote:

(This question is primarily for those who've been using the High Sierra
beta and are familiar with the changes in it from Sierra.)

Short form: Will I be better off upgrading my 2010 17-inch MBP from
Yosemite to Sierra now, and then moving to High Sierra later, or staying
on Yosemite until I'm ready to upgrade to High Sierra?



Mark D. McKean
[hidden email]





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James R. Cutler
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Re: Sierra now, or High Sierra later? (2010 MBP 17-inch)

Mr. Seth Anderson
In reply to this post by Mark D. McKean

On Aug 7, 2017, at 11:06 PM, Mark D. McKean <[hidden email]> wrote:

Short form: Will I be better off upgrading my 2010 17-inch MBP from
Yosemite to Sierra now, and then moving to High Sierra later, or staying
on Yosemite until I'm ready to upgrade to High Sierra?

If you aren’t interested in using the public beta of High Sierra (or the .0 release), I would go ahead and upgrade to Sierra now. Sierra will take some adjusting to compared to Yosemite, but imo isn’t radically different in appearance to High Sierra. Sierra has been acceptably stable on my MacBookPro 17” (early 2011).

I also agree with you: I like having a portable machine with a 17” monitor.

-Seth Anderson
sursum vestri culus

often found at 
http://www.b12partners.net/wp/

or

http://www.twitter.com/swanksalot




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Re: Sierra now, or High Sierra later? (2010 MBP 17-inch)

"John Turner the Bear😎"
In reply to this post by Mark D. McKean
I love High Sierra! Remember though you might run into a bug. But all in all I'm eally happy with it. If you are able to update from where you are to the new OS directly I would reccomend that you do that. It will cause less confusion for sure. I am not sure though if your OS is current enough to update as it stands.
 
Bear😎
 
 
Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2017 at 12:06 AM
From: "Mark D. McKean" <[hidden email]>
To: "TidBITS-Talk Mailing List" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Sierra now, or High Sierra later? (2010 MBP 17-inch)
(This question is primarily for those who've been using the High Sierra
beta and are familiar with the changes in it from Sierra.)

Short form: Will I be better off upgrading my 2010 17-inch MBP from
Yosemite to Sierra now, and then moving to High Sierra later, or staying
on Yosemite until I'm ready to upgrade to High Sierra?

Long form: I'm desperately trying to keep my aging 17-inch MacBook Pro
(Mid-2010) going in the hopes that Apple will finally acknowledge the
growing chunk of us who need portable machines with physically large
screens and reintroduce the 17-incher by the time this machine is no
longer viable. (I know, not likely to happen. But no one thought Apple
would admit they screwed up by ignoring the pro users, and yet they did.
So it may happen.)

I've kept this MBP on Yosemite, intending to up it to El Capitan or
Sierra once I could justify it. Having recently swapped in a new battery
and a 1TB internal SSD (to replace the terminally-ill 500GB HD it came
with), I think I've finally got enough performance to spare to be worth
trying to upgrade to a more current version of OS X/macOS. (I maxed out
the RAM years ago at 8GB, and the SSD makes that less important anyway.
There really isn't anything else of value hardware-wise I could do
except add faster external ports via the ExpressCard slot, and that's
not a priority.)

I've been checking out various sites around the web for advice on the
actual upgrade, and I think that I'm ready for it software-wise. What
I'm trying to figure out now is which version to take it to.

My thought is that going to El Capitan would probably be pointless,
unless the performance suffers too much under Sierra. (I downloaded an
El Capitan installer from the MAS over a year ago, so getting that
installer would not be a problem if I needed it.) I have seen reports
that some 2010 and older MBPs don't do well under Sierra, but it seems
to be hit or miss, and I haven't noticed any consistent pattern to which
ones don't do well. But El Capitan wouldn't add much benefit for me over
Yosemite, from what I've seen, in exchange for the added security
hassles that were introduced. So if Sierra/High Sierra runs like a slug,
I figure I may as well stick with Yosemite.

But I don't know if it would be better to go ahead and switch to Sierra
now, assuming performance is acceptable, or wait for the .1 release of
High Sierra before doing any upgrade. (I never upgrade to the .0 release
of a new OS version. In my experience, .0 is really the final,
widest-release beta.) The largest concern in my mind is the transition
from HFS+ to APFS.

As I understand it, APFS is supposed to be spaceworthy for the official
release of High Sierra, and it's apparently a one-way conversion (as on
iOS 10); I don't know what its current status under the High Sierra beta
is. I already know that the security changes from Yosemite to El
Capitan/Sierra are going to take some effort and tweaking to get
integrated into my processes. (I'm a mid-grade power user, comfortable
with the command line but not quite fluent in it; I have no qualms about
tinkering under the hood to make things work the way I want them to, and
I know what precautions to take and which things to just not mess with
at all. So the tweaking itself isn't a problem for me.)

Would it be easier or better for me to take care of those adjustments
before converting to APFS by upgrading to Sierra now and then High
Sierra and APFS later? Or should I just wait for an appropriate release
of High Sierra and do all the adjustments at once? Or am I fooling
myself into thinking this machine won't choke on Sierra?

Mark D. McKean
[hidden email]





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Re: Sierra now, or High Sierra later? (2010 MBP 17-inch)

"John Turner the Bear😎"
In reply to this post by Al Varnell
Al,
 
No one is giving up trade secrets. All he was asking for was about updating to the new OS.  Since Apple does not readily give answers, we are not violating anything to say yea or nay to about trying out the beta from our own experiences.
 
Bear😎
 
 
Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2017 at 3:43 AM
From: "Al Varnell" <[hidden email]>
To: "TidBITS Talk" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: Sierra now, or High Sierra later? (2010 MBP 17-inch)
On Mon, Aug 07, 2017 at 09:06 PM, Mark D. McKean wrote:
>
> (This question is primarily for those who've been using the High Sierra
> beta and are familiar with the changes in it from Sierra.)

You are asking folks to violate their promise to Apple that they would not reveal anything regarding their use of the High Sierra beta. Seems to be increasingly common these days for a persons' promises to be meaningless, but if I were using it I certainly would never go back on my word.

Most of what is publicly known can be found on the High Sierra Preview site <https://www.apple.com/macos/high-sierra-preview/>. There are more details about specific features available from various WWDC17 sessions, but to me it all boils down to two main thrusts.

- Refinement of macOS Sierra. There were and still are a lot of rough spots in Sierra, so the development team was asked to slow down, minimize new features and smooth out the computing experience. So even though you will see a few new features introduced, they have been purposely minimized this time around. Not to the same extent as Snow Leopard was to Leopard, but a similar idea.

- Technology advances to lay the ground work for future innovation. The OS has become somewhat stagnant in order to retain backward compatibility with things like 32-bit apps, the HFS+ file format and a variety of failing security protocols.. Many under-the-hood things need to change in order move forward in years to come.

If you haven't watched the WWDC17 Keynote, skip forward to about the 22 minute mark and listen to the details.
<https://www.apple.com/apple-events/june-2017/>

> Short form: Will I be better off upgrading my 2010 17-inch MBP from
> Yosemite to Sierra now, and then moving to High Sierra later, or staying
> on Yosemite until I'm ready to upgrade to High Sierra?

Yosemite was by far the most troublesome OS X I've had the displeasure of using, so El Camino was a very clear necessity for me. It's still what I rely on for my every day work. I'm a bit surprised that you didn't give it a try.

> Long form: I'm desperately trying to keep my aging 17-inch MacBook Pro
> (Mid-2010) going in the hopes that Apple will finally acknowledge the
> growing chunk of us who need portable machines with physically large
> screens and reintroduce the 17-incher by the time this machine is no
> longer viable. (I know, not likely to happen. But no one thought Apple
> would admit they screwed up by ignoring the pro users, and yet they did.
> So it may happen.)
>
> I've kept this MBP on Yosemite, intending to up it to El Capitan or
> Sierra once I could justify it. Having recently swapped in a new battery
> and a 1TB internal SSD (to replace the terminally-ill 500GB HD it came
> with), I think I've finally got enough performance to spare to be worth
> trying to upgrade to a more current version of OS X/macOS. (I maxed out
> the RAM years ago at 8GB, and the SSD makes that less important anyway.
> There really isn't anything else of value hardware-wise I could do
> except add faster external ports via the ExpressCard slot, and that's
> not a priority.)
>
> I've been checking out various sites around the web for advice on the
> actual upgrade, and I think that I'm ready for it software-wise. What
> I'm trying to figure out now is which version to take it to.
>
> My thought is that going to El Capitan would probably be pointless,
> unless the performance suffers too much under Sierra. (I downloaded an
> El Capitan installer from the MAS over a year ago, so getting that
> installer would not be a problem if I needed it.) I have seen reports
> that some 2010 and older MBPs don't do well under Sierra, but it seems
> to be hit or miss, and I haven't noticed any consistent pattern to which
> ones don't do well. But El Capitan wouldn't add much benefit for me over
> Yosemite, from what I've seen, in exchange for the added security
> hassles that were introduced. So if Sierra/High Sierra runs like a slug,
> I figure I may as well stick with Yosemite.
>
> But I don't know if it would be better to go ahead and switch to Sierra
> now, assuming performance is acceptable, or wait for the .1 release of
> High Sierra before doing any upgrade. (I never upgrade to the .0 release
> of a new OS version. In my experience, .0 is really the final,
> widest-release beta.) The largest concern in my mind is the transition
> from HFS+ to APFS.
>
> As I understand it, APFS is supposed to be spaceworthy for the official
> release of High Sierra, and it's apparently a one-way conversion (as on
> iOS 10); I don't know what its current status under the High Sierra beta
> is. I already know that the security changes from Yosemite to El
> Capitan/Sierra are going to take some effort and tweaking to get
> integrated into my processes. (I'm a mid-grade power user, comfortable
> with the command line but not quite fluent in it; I have no qualms about
> tinkering under the hood to make things work the way I want them to, and
> I know what precautions to take and which things to just not mess with
> at all. So the tweaking itself isn't a problem for me.)
>
> Would it be easier or better for me to take care of those adjustments
> before converting to APFS by upgrading to Sierra now and then High
> Sierra and APFS later? Or should I just wait for an appropriate release
> of High Sierra and do all the adjustments at once? Or am I fooling
> myself into thinking this machine won't choke on Sierra?

There's an easy way to find out about your last question. Buy an external SSD drive and sign up for the Public Beta. If your MBP is going to choke, you'll know pretty quickly and I'm sure you can find another use for that drive.

If you do think you might want to do an interim stop at Sierra, be sure to download it soon as it won't be available after the day High Sierra is released.

> Mark D. McKean


-Al-
--
Al Varnell
Mountain View, CA






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Re: Sierra now, or High Sierra later? (2010 MBP 17-inch) [Off Line]

Al Varnell
Perhaps you should re-read the NDA. You gave your word to Apple that you would not relate your user experiences to anyone outside of the beta testing community. Isn't one's word worth anything any more?

That being said, I do appreciate the problem of not having a Public Beta Forum for such things. I myself wrote Apple about this before the first Public Beta, but it obviously fell on deaf ears. It's just not that hard for them to do, would save them from having to police the ASC as they have and I believe give them a higher level of feedback in the long run.

Sent from Janet's iPad

-Al-
-- 
Al Varnell
Mountain View, CA

On Aug 8, 2017, at 8:44 AM, "John Turner the Bear😎" wrote:

Al,
 
No one is giving up trade secrets. All he was asking for was about updating to the new OS.  Since Apple does not readily give answers, we are not violating anything to say yea or nay to about trying out the beta from our own experiences.
 
Bear😎
 
 
Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2017 at 3:43 AM
From: "Al Varnell" <[hidden email]>
To: "TidBITS Talk" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: Sierra now, or High Sierra later? (2010 MBP 17-inch)
On Mon, Aug 07, 2017 at 09:06 PM, Mark D. McKean wrote:
>
> (This question is primarily for those who've been using the High Sierra
> beta and are familiar with the changes in it from Sierra.)

You are asking folks to violate their promise to Apple that they would not reveal anything regarding their use of the High Sierra beta. Seems to be increasingly common these days for a persons' promises to be meaningless, but if I were using it I certainly would never go back on my word.

Most of what is publicly known can be found on the High Sierra Preview site <https://www.apple.com/macos/high-sierra-preview/>. There are more details about specific features available from various WWDC17 sessions, but to me it all boils down to two main thrusts.

- Refinement of macOS Sierra. There were and still are a lot of rough spots in Sierra, so the development team was asked to slow down, minimize new features and smooth out the computing experience. So even though you will see a few new features introduced, they have been purposely minimized this time around. Not to the same extent as Snow Leopard was to Leopard, but a similar idea.

- Technology advances to lay the ground work for future innovation. The OS has become somewhat stagnant in order to retain backward compatibility with things like 32-bit apps, the HFS+ file format and a variety of failing security protocols.. Many under-the-hood things need to change in order move forward in years to come.

If you haven't watched the WWDC17 Keynote, skip forward to about the 22 minute mark and listen to the details.
<https://www.apple.com/apple-events/june-2017/>

> Short form: Will I be better off upgrading my 2010 17-inch MBP from
> Yosemite to Sierra now, and then moving to High Sierra later, or staying
> on Yosemite until I'm ready to upgrade to High Sierra?

Yosemite was by far the most troublesome OS X I've had the displeasure of using, so El Camino was a very clear necessity for me. It's still what I rely on for my every day work. I'm a bit surprised that you didn't give it a try.

> Long form: I'm desperately trying to keep my aging 17-inch MacBook Pro
> (Mid-2010) going in the hopes that Apple will finally acknowledge the
> growing chunk of us who need portable machines with physically large
> screens and reintroduce the 17-incher by the time this machine is no
> longer viable. (I know, not likely to happen. But no one thought Apple
> would admit they screwed up by ignoring the pro users, and yet they did.
> So it may happen.)
>
> I've kept this MBP on Yosemite, intending to up it to El Capitan or
> Sierra once I could justify it. Having recently swapped in a new battery
> and a 1TB internal SSD (to replace the terminally-ill 500GB HD it came
> with), I think I've finally got enough performance to spare to be worth
> trying to upgrade to a more current version of OS X/macOS. (I maxed out
> the RAM years ago at 8GB, and the SSD makes that less important anyway.
> There really isn't anything else of value hardware-wise I could do
> except add faster external ports via the ExpressCard slot, and that's
> not a priority.)
>
> I've been checking out various sites around the web for advice on the
> actual upgrade, and I think that I'm ready for it software-wise. What
> I'm trying to figure out now is which version to take it to.
>
> My thought is that going to El Capitan would probably be pointless,
> unless the performance suffers too much under Sierra. (I downloaded an
> El Capitan installer from the MAS over a year ago, so getting that
> installer would not be a problem if I needed it.) I have seen reports
> that some 2010 and older MBPs don't do well under Sierra, but it seems
> to be hit or miss, and I haven't noticed any consistent pattern to which
> ones don't do well. But El Capitan wouldn't add much benefit for me over
> Yosemite, from what I've seen, in exchange for the added security
> hassles that were introduced. So if Sierra/High Sierra runs like a slug,
> I figure I may as well stick with Yosemite.
>
> But I don't know if it would be better to go ahead and switch to Sierra
> now, assuming performance is acceptable, or wait for the .1 release of
> High Sierra before doing any upgrade. (I never upgrade to the .0 release
> of a new OS version. In my experience, .0 is really the final,
> widest-release beta.) The largest concern in my mind is the transition
> from HFS+ to APFS.
>
> As I understand it, APFS is supposed to be spaceworthy for the official
> release of High Sierra, and it's apparently a one-way conversion (as on
> iOS 10); I don't know what its current status under the High Sierra beta
> is. I already know that the security changes from Yosemite to El
> Capitan/Sierra are going to take some effort and tweaking to get
> integrated into my processes. (I'm a mid-grade power user, comfortable
> with the command line but not quite fluent in it; I have no qualms about
> tinkering under the hood to make things work the way I want them to, and
> I know what precautions to take and which things to just not mess with
> at all. So the tweaking itself isn't a problem for me.)
>
> Would it be easier or better for me to take care of those adjustments
> before converting to APFS by upgrading to Sierra now and then High
> Sierra and APFS later? Or should I just wait for an appropriate release
> of High Sierra and do all the adjustments at once? Or am I fooling
> myself into thinking this machine won't choke on Sierra?

There's an easy way to find out about your last question. Buy an external SSD drive and sign up for the Public Beta. If your MBP is going to choke, you'll know pretty quickly and I'm sure you can find another use for that drive.

If you do think you might want to do an interim stop at Sierra, be sure to download it soon as it won't be available after the day High Sierra is released.

> Mark D. McKean


-Al-
--
Al Varnell
Mountain View, CA






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Re: Sierra now, or High Sierra later? (2010 MBP 17-inch)

Mark D. McKean
In reply to this post by Al Varnell
On 08/08/2017 03:43 am, Al Varnell wrote:
> You are asking folks to violate their promise to Apple that they would not reveal anything regarding their use of the High Sierra beta. Seems to be increasingly common these days for a persons' promises to be meaningless, but if I were using it I certainly would never go back on my word.

My apologies for being unclear. I wasn't looking for any specifics that
I thought would violate that agreement. Just advice on whether to wait
for High Sierra before spending the time and effort of upgrading, or
take the interim step of upgrading to Sierra now. If it's not possible
to provide any advice on that without violating that agreement, then
that's all that needs said.

> There's an easy way to find out about your last question. Buy an external SSD drive and sign up for the Public Beta. If your MBP is going to choke, you'll know pretty quickly and I'm sure you can find another use for that drive.

Easier said than done. It was a major investment for me to get that
internal SSD, one that I could justify only by the fact that there isn't
a currently available MBP (or any more recent than 2012) that could
adequately replace my current machine (and so little reason to reserve
that money towards a replacement). I have more than ample traditional
external drives to test with, but of course the slowness of a mechanical
drive over USB2 pretty much guarantees that it wouldn't tell me much
that's useful performance-wise. I'm not even certain that the USB2
bottleneck by itself wouldn't slow things down enough to make it pointless.

OTOH, I do have sufficient free space on my internal drive to run a test
partition. I know that there are utilities that claim to be able to
non-destructively repartition a drive, but I don't know if they actually
work, or if they have any hidden tricks they use that would make such a
partition unsuitable for a boot volume. Does anyone have any experience
with these?

Mark D. McKean
[hidden email]




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Re: Sierra now, or High Sierra later? (2010 MBP 17-inch)

Mark D. McKean
In reply to this post by @lbutlr
On 08/08/2017 09:13 am, @lbutlr wrote:
> The 17" was always a low-volume machine and there is very little call
> from people for a larger machine; quite the opposite, in fact as many
> people are shying away from the 15" because of its size and a lot of
> people with the 15" because they need the GPU and/or processing power
> are not happy with the size and weight. A MBP with an external screen
> is a desktop-repalcemnt for many people, and the quality of the screen
> is amazing.


Not to denigrate your opinion, but that's pretty much the exact
reasoning that Apple seems to be following, and based on what I've seen
online and heard from Apple Geniuses, I think it's incorrect to believe
that this represents any greater fraction of the total user base than
those who prefer the larger machines.

One sign of this is the secondary market. '09-'12 17" MBPs are some of
the highest-priced used machines out there relative to original MSRP.
Supply is low and demand is high (though demand for the '09s is slowly
dropping since Sierra left them behind). Even non-functional systems
being sold for parts are in heavy demand.

Another sign is in the Windows laptop market. Nearly every manufacturer
on the Windows side that makes high-end pro laptops seems to offer at
least one model with a 17" screen. They wouldn't all be doing that if
there wasn't a decent-sized market for them. (If it weren't so horribly
impractical to try to turn a laptop into a Hackintosh, I'd seriously
consider that route.)

So why does Apple think there's little call for a larger laptop? My
guess would be that most of us gave up asking Apple for one some time
ago. It's been five years since they offered one, and until their public
mea culpa about the late-2016 MBPs, there was no indication that Apple
was paying any attention to the concerns of the genuinely professional
users. Whereas those who have issues with the current machines are
complaining to Apple right now. Out of sight, out of mind.

What Apple doesn't seem to understand is that there are a lot of people
whose needs fall in between a desktop setup and a use-anywhere laptop.
I'm not taking my MBP to the park, or using it on an airplane. I need a
primary machine that I can take to other locations besides my home
office without having to set up anything but power to be fully
functional. You might call it a "portable desktop" concept. I just don't
have the resources to justify having a stay-in-one-place primary machine
and a second smaller machine to carry around.

I'm pretty certain that the move to Retina screens is what ultimately
led Apple to drop the 17". At the time, the increase in power
requirements would have given a system with a 17" Retina screen abysmal
battery life. But batteries are better now, the OS manages power better
now, and the hardware itself draws less power now. It could be done and
be practical. Yes, it would still be a relatively small market overall,
but if done adequately, it would be well received by the true "pro"
market, and it would go a long way towards restoring Apple's rep among
pro users.

Mark D. McKean
[hidden email]





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Re: Sierra now, or High Sierra later? (2010 MBP 17-inch) [Off Line]

@lbutlr
In reply to this post by Al Varnell
On Aug 8, 2017, at 12:33 PM, Al Varnell <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Perhaps you should re-read the NDA. You gave your word to Apple that you would not relate your user experiences to anyone outside of the beta testing community. Isn't one's word worth anything any more?

Rereading the NDA would be a great idea. It doesn't say what you think it says.

(And yes, I reread it when Apple introduced public betas and just double-checked it a few minutes ago).

--
Apple broke AppleScripting signatures in Mail.app, so no random signatures.




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Signing off!

"John Turner the Bear😎"
In reply to this post by Al Varnell
This will be my last posting to Tidbits. It will be interesting to see if Adam posts it. I am sick unto death of Apple's attitude. I regret that I just bought my new iMac. If I could I would cancel my 3K$ order and buy an inferior PC I would. But it is to late to do it! I have owned a Mac since the 1st Mac Plus came out. I have owned the Plus, the SE, G3, G4, G5, an early iMac, and 2 minis and now a new iMac which I will have in a few days. I have supported Apple always and have tested virtually every OS from OS X 6 to the current beta. I have used virtually every  app that Apple has produced or been aligned with. But in the end none of this has made a bit of difference. Apple has abandoned caring about the user.  It is no longer the computer for EVERYONE. Apple has become as much of a monster as all of the rest of the computer manufatures. They want to make as much money as they can and simply do not care anylonger for the user. Go back oner the past couple  of months posting on TidBits and see all of those who have asked for help and gotten nothing, or if they get a response it is useless.
 
I am angry, frustrated and sickened by it. I am just going to retire to being a user of the Mac and no longer participate in its communities period. Yes I will be punishing myself in doing this. But, I am to damn old to deal with the frustration. I am tired of being angry over something that I have no control over.
 
I have to say that I have enjoyed being part of the TidBits group. Many of you are truly wonderful people.!
 
Bear 
 
 
 
Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2017 at 2:33 PM
From: "Al Varnell" <[hidden email]>
To: "TidBITS Talk" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: Sierra now, or High Sierra later? (2010 MBP 17-inch) [Off Line]
Perhaps you should re-read the NDA. You gave your word to Apple that you would not relate your user experiences to anyone outside of the beta testing community. Isn't one's word worth anything any more?
 
That being said, I do appreciate the problem of not having a Public Beta Forum for such things. I myself wrote Apple about this before the first Public Beta, but it obviously fell on deaf ears. It's just not that hard for them to do, would save them from having to police the ASC as they have and I believe give them a higher level of feedback in the long run.

Sent from Janet's iPad
 
-Al-
-- 
Al Varnell
Mountain View, CA

On Aug 8, 2017, at 8:44 AM, "John Turner the Bear😎" wrote:
 
 
Al,
 
No one is giving up trade secrets. All he was asking for was about updating to the new OS.  Since Apple does not readily give answers, we are not violating anything to say yea or nay to about trying out the beta from our own experiences.
 
Bear😎
 
 
Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2017 at 3:43 AM
From: "Al Varnell" <[hidden email]>
To: "TidBITS Talk" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: Sierra now, or High Sierra later? (2010 MBP 17-inch)
On Mon, Aug 07, 2017 at 09:06 PM, Mark D. McKean wrote:
>
> (This question is primarily for those who've been using the High Sierra
> beta and are familiar with the changes in it from Sierra.)

You are asking folks to violate their promise to Apple that they would not reveal anything regarding their use of the High Sierra beta. Seems to be increasingly common these days for a persons' promises to be meaningless, but if I were using it I certainly would never go back on my word.

Most of what is publicly known can be found on the High Sierra Preview site <https://www.apple.com/macos/high-sierra-preview/>. There are more details about specific features available from various WWDC17 sessions, but to me it all boils down to two main thrusts.

- Refinement of macOS Sierra. There were and still are a lot of rough spots in Sierra, so the development team was asked to slow down, minimize new features and smooth out the computing experience. So even though you will see a few new features introduced, they have been purposely minimized this time around. Not to the same extent as Snow Leopard was to Leopard, but a similar idea.

- Technology advances to lay the ground work for future innovation. The OS has become somewhat stagnant in order to retain backward compatibility with things like 32-bit apps, the HFS+ file format and a variety of failing security protocols.. Many under-the-hood things need to change in order move forward in years to come.

If you haven't watched the WWDC17 Keynote, skip forward to about the 22 minute mark and listen to the details.
<https://www.apple.com/apple-events/june-2017/>

> Short form: Will I be better off upgrading my 2010 17-inch MBP from
> Yosemite to Sierra now, and then moving to High Sierra later, or staying
> on Yosemite until I'm ready to upgrade to High Sierra?

Yosemite was by far the most troublesome OS X I've had the displeasure of using, so El Camino was a very clear necessity for me. It's still what I rely on for my every day work. I'm a bit surprised that you didn't give it a try.

> Long form: I'm desperately trying to keep my aging 17-inch MacBook Pro
> (Mid-2010) going in the hopes that Apple will finally acknowledge the
> growing chunk of us who need portable machines with physically large
> screens and reintroduce the 17-incher by the time this machine is no
> longer viable. (I know, not likely to happen. But no one thought Apple
> would admit they screwed up by ignoring the pro users, and yet they did.
> So it may happen.)
>
> I've kept this MBP on Yosemite, intending to up it to El Capitan or
> Sierra once I could justify it. Having recently swapped in a new battery
> and a 1TB internal SSD (to replace the terminally-ill 500GB HD it came
> with), I think I've finally got enough performance to spare to be worth
> trying to upgrade to a more current version of OS X/macOS. (I maxed out
> the RAM years ago at 8GB, and the SSD makes that less important anyway.
> There really isn't anything else of value hardware-wise I could do
> except add faster external ports via the ExpressCard slot, and that's
> not a priority.)
>
> I've been checking out various sites around the web for advice on the
> actual upgrade, and I think that I'm ready for it software-wise. What
> I'm trying to figure out now is which version to take it to.
>
> My thought is that going to El Capitan would probably be pointless,
> unless the performance suffers too much under Sierra. (I downloaded an
> El Capitan installer from the MAS over a year ago, so getting that
> installer would not be a problem if I needed it.) I have seen reports
> that some 2010 and older MBPs don't do well under Sierra, but it seems
> to be hit or miss, and I haven't noticed any consistent pattern to which
> ones don't do well. But El Capitan wouldn't add much benefit for me over
> Yosemite, from what I've seen, in exchange for the added security
> hassles that were introduced. So if Sierra/High Sierra runs like a slug,
> I figure I may as well stick with Yosemite.
>
> But I don't know if it would be better to go ahead and switch to Sierra
> now, assuming performance is acceptable, or wait for the .1 release of
> High Sierra before doing any upgrade. (I never upgrade to the .0 release
> of a new OS version. In my experience, .0 is really the final,
> widest-release beta.) The largest concern in my mind is the transition
> from HFS+ to APFS.
>
> As I understand it, APFS is supposed to be spaceworthy for the official
> release of High Sierra, and it's apparently a one-way conversion (as on
> iOS 10); I don't know what its current status under the High Sierra beta
> is. I already know that the security changes from Yosemite to El
> Capitan/Sierra are going to take some effort and tweaking to get
> integrated into my processes. (I'm a mid-grade power user, comfortable
> with the command line but not quite fluent in it; I have no qualms about
> tinkering under the hood to make things work the way I want them to, and
> I know what precautions to take and which things to just not mess with
> at all. So the tweaking itself isn't a problem for me.)
>
> Would it be easier or better for me to take care of those adjustments
> before converting to APFS by upgrading to Sierra now and then High
> Sierra and APFS later? Or should I just wait for an appropriate release
> of High Sierra and do all the adjustments at once? Or am I fooling
> myself into thinking this machine won't choke on Sierra?

There's an easy way to find out about your last question. Buy an external SSD drive and sign up for the Public Beta. If your MBP is going to choke, you'll know pretty quickly and I'm sure you can find another use for that drive.

If you do think you might want to do an interim stop at Sierra, be sure to download it soon as it won't be available after the day High Sierra is released.

> Mark D. McKean


-Al-
--
Al Varnell
Mountain View, CA






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Re: Signing off!

adamengst
Administrator
On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 5:02 PM, "John Turner the Bear😎" <[hidden email]> wrote:
This will be my last posting to Tidbits. It will be interesting to see if Adam posts it.

I only moderate first posts before they appear — everything else shows up right away. :-) But criticizing Apple isn’t a worry anyway.
  
I am angry, frustrated and sickened by it. I am just going to retire to being a user of the Mac and no longer participate in its communities period. Yes I will be punishing myself in doing this. But, I am to damn old to deal with the frustration. I am tired of being angry over something that I have no control over.
 
I have to say that I have enjoyed being part of the TidBits group. Many of you are truly wonderful people.!

We’re certainly sorry to see you go, but I think it’s important to separate Apple the company from the Apple community. In many ways, the latter makes up for the former.

cheers... -Adam 



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Re: Signing off!

Alexander Forbes
In reply to this post by "John Turner the Bear😎"
On Aug 8, 2017, at 2:02 PM, John Turner the Bear😎 <[hidden email]> wrote:

I am angry, frustrated and sickened by it. I am just going to retire to being a user of the Mac and no longer participate in its communities period.

I liked Adam's response but have an old experience that seems related to pride and frustration, and worthy of sharing.

I hail from the Apple II and 128K Macintosh days. I've been with TidBITS almost since its founding. I was very loyal to Apple and traded up to current machines as I could afford it.

I remained a fervent Mac user and was active in our local Mac user group, until 1997 when I ordered a fast,  state of the art Power Computing "Mac Clone" at the San Francisco MAC EXPO. Then Steve Jobs killed the Mac clone licensing program and I found myself sitting on a new and suddenly unsupported machine. I started building my own Windows PC machines. I really enjoyed building and upgrading my own machines, but I never liked Windows even after I became known as  PC guru. To this day I have never met anyone who raves about how wonderful Windows is, even Windows 10. You have to be willing to suffer the warts and all.

But I continued to watch the Apple community and news.  In 2009 I bought the Mac Pro I'm using now, though I upgraded that too. I still have my last old PC, a massive homebuilt in a CoolerMaster Cosmos case. I use it once or twice a year to test epubs under Windows 7.

I depend on my Macs and I like our Mac community. I have never participated in a Beta, but if I did, it wouldn't be on my main machine, a 2015 27" iMac. I need stable final releases for my personal projects and work. My eyes are too bad to be building any more machines these days anyway.

Alex



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Re: Signing off!

David Brostoff-2
In reply to this post by "John Turner the Bear😎"
On Aug 8, 2017, at 2:02 PM, John Turner the Bear😎 <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I regret that I just bought my new iMac. If I could I would cancel my 3K$ order and buy an inferior PC I would. But it is to late to do it!

Unless I'm mistaken Apple has a 14-day return policy. (At least that's what they told me at the Apple Store recently.)

David




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Re: Signing off!

Randy B. Singer

On Aug 8, 2017, at 3:35 PM, David Brostoff wrote:

> Unless I'm mistaken Apple has a 14-day return policy. (At least that's what they told me at the Apple Store recently.)

Correct.  

https://www.apple.com/shop/help/returns_refund

"You have 14 calendar days to return an item from the date you received it."

The link above will tell you how to return your Mac for a refund.

___________________________________________
Randy B. Singer
Co-author of The Macintosh Bible (4th, 5th, and 6th editions)

Macintosh OS X Routine Maintenance
http://www.macattorney.com/ts.html
___________________________________________






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Re: Signing off!

Randy B. Singer
In reply to this post by "John Turner the Bear😎"

On Aug 8, 2017, at 2:02 PM, John Turner the Bear😎 wrote:

> It is no longer the computer for EVERYONE. Apple has become as much of a monster as all of the rest of the computer manufatures. They want to make as much money as they can and simply do not care anylonger for the user. Go back oner the past couple  of months posting on TidBits and see all of those who have asked for help and gotten nothing, or if they get a response it is useless.
>  
> I am angry, frustrated and sickened by it.

I hear a similar story once or twice a year.

This is very important...Apple is a *company*, not a person or a club or a philanthropic organization.  *Every* company's goal is to make as much money as possible.  If the company didn't have this as a goal they would soon be sued by shareholders.  Too many Macintosh users think that because they have invested a lot of love and enthusiasm into Apple and their products that Apple loves them back or somehow feels that they "owe" their customers something.  They definitely do not.  No company does.

(As an aside, I've met personally with several of the very top folks at Apple.  Despite any appearance from things like keynotes at Macworld Expo, these are not at all nice people.  So even if you get down to the human level, no one at Apple cares about you personally.)

Apple doesn't care about your feelings, they don't care about what you in particular want, and they don't love you.  They are like any other company.  (Do you think that Microsoft cares about you?  Google?  Adobe?)  They only care about what you are likely to purchase from them.

If your beef is that Apple has abandoned a technology that you like and/or feel that you need (e.g. MagSafe, Firewire, mini DisplayPort, etc, etc.), they don't give a damn about how upset you are about it, and that's all there is to it.  Apple knows that in the personal computer industry, failure to move forward and quickly adopt the latest technology and leave old technology behind is the only course for them to be successful.  That's what motivates sales.  Customers love Apple products, in part, because they are cutting edge.  If this were the wrong course,  people wouldn't purchase Apple's products.  But they do.  In amounts that have made Apple the most valuable company in the world.  Since Apple's sales success has continued over many years now, it stands to reason that Apple knows what they are doing and that it's unlikely that they are going to change.

Apple does have by far the best technical support of any personal computer company.  You can't win a debate over that.  Apple regularly wins all the awards for best support and for customer satisfaction.  Apple has even passed on saving money by offshoring their tech support because they know that tech support and customer satisfaction is paramount.  So it isn't that Apple isn't concerned about their customer's satisfaction in a very general way.

Apple does make mistakes.  I can't think of specific examples right now, but I do recall instances where Apple has done something and a huge amount of dissatisfied feedback got them to change things.  But generally Apple knows what sells, and they aren't going to change their designs for a few hundred folks who are unhappy.

The bottom line is that if you like Apple's products, purchase them and use them.  If you don't, purchase something that you like better and use that.  We aren't groupies here on TidBits Talk.  We're here to help each other.  If you don't need the help, or don't want to help others, then it's fine to not participate.  But  none of us has anything to do with Apple's choices and direction.  We don't work for Apple and Apple doesn't ask for our advice.

This is also very important (I've seen it far too often)...threatening to withhold your participation on a Macintosh discussion list, bad-mouthing Apple in general constantly among other Mac users (i.e. trolling), threatening to switch to Windows if things don't change the way you want them to, (all of which, to my mind, is the equivalent of a child threatening to hold their breath until they turn blue) won't change *anything*.  It will only serve to cause other Macintosh users to loath and shun you.  Please direct your energy in a way that is more productive.

___________________________________________
Randy B. Singer
Co-author of The Macintosh Bible (4th, 5th, and 6th editions)

Macintosh OS X Routine Maintenance
http://www.macattorney.com/ts.html
___________________________________________






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Re: Signing off!

dianed143@comcast.net
In reply to this post by David Brostoff-2

> On Aug 8, 2017, at 6:35 PM, David Brostoff <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On Aug 8, 2017, at 2:02 PM, John Turner the Bear😎 <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I regret that I just bought my new iMac. If I could I would cancel my 3K$ order and buy an inferior PC I would. But it is to late to do it!
>
> Unless I'm mistaken Apple has a 14-day return policy. (At least that's what they told me at the Apple Store recently.)

I just bought a Shuffle and keyboard and they told me the same. Especially for the keyboard as they didn’t have an open one for me to play with.

Diane




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Re: Sierra now, or High Sierra later? (2010 MBP 17-inch)

Vince Winterling
In reply to this post by Mark D. McKean
I have considerable experience with drive partitioning. My fervent recommendation is to make a clone backup of the drive first. Then try re-partitioning with Disk Utility and should things go awry you can restore your clone.

Regarding your questions regarding High Sierra, they do not, in my view, compromise the agreement beta testers agree to when participating in the program.

--
Vincent Winterling
Vineland, NJ

On 8/8/17, 2:44 PM, "[hidden email] on behalf of Mark D. McKean" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote:

    On 08/08/2017 03:43 am, Al Varnell wrote:
    > You are asking folks to violate their promise to Apple that they would not reveal anything regarding their use of the High Sierra beta. Seems to be increasingly common these days for a persons' promises to be meaningless, but if I were using it I certainly would never go back on my word.
   
    My apologies for being unclear. I wasn't looking for any specifics that
    I thought would violate that agreement. Just advice on whether to wait
    for High Sierra before spending the time and effort of upgrading, or
    take the interim step of upgrading to Sierra now. If it's not possible
    to provide any advice on that without violating that agreement, then
    that's all that needs said.
   
    > There's an easy way to find out about your last question. Buy an external SSD drive and sign up for the Public Beta. If your MBP is going to choke, you'll know pretty quickly and I'm sure you can find another use for that drive.
   
    Easier said than done. It was a major investment for me to get that
    internal SSD, one that I could justify only by the fact that there isn't
    a currently available MBP (or any more recent than 2012) that could
    adequately replace my current machine (and so little reason to reserve
    that money towards a replacement). I have more than ample traditional
    external drives to test with, but of course the slowness of a mechanical
    drive over USB2 pretty much guarantees that it wouldn't tell me much
    that's useful performance-wise. I'm not even certain that the USB2
    bottleneck by itself wouldn't slow things down enough to make it pointless.
   
    OTOH, I do have sufficient free space on my internal drive to run a test
    partition. I know that there are utilities that claim to be able to
    non-destructively repartition a drive, but I don't know if they actually
    work, or if they have any hidden tricks they use that would make such a
    partition unsuitable for a boot volume. Does anyone have any experience
    with these?
   
    Mark D. McKean
    [hidden email]
   
   
   





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Re: Sierra now, or High Sierra later? (2010 MBP 17-inch)

Mark D. McKean
On 08/08/2017 09:07 pm, Vince Winterling wrote:
> I have considerable experience with drive partitioning. My fervent recommendation is to make a clone backup of the drive first. Then try re-partitioning with Disk Utility and should things go awry you can restore your clone.

If I'm understanding you correctly, you're suggesting that Disk Utility
under Yosemite is capable of non-destructively repartitioning an HFS+
boot drive. Am I getting that right? If so, would it need to be rebooted
from Recovery, or an alternate physical drive, first?

I go back far enough to remember when partitioning required a full
reformat/reinitialization from step 1, so just the idea of
non-destructive or dynamic repartitioning on any descendant of HFS makes
me overly cautious.

Mark D. McKean
[hidden email]





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