Re: "Pondering the conversion from HFS+ to APFS"

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
52 messages Options
123
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: "Pondering the conversion from HFS+ to APFS"

"John Turner the Bear😎"
Thanks for the warning!

Bear😎

On Jul 10, 2017, 7:21 PM -0400, gastropod <[hidden email]>, wrote:
https://bombich.com/blog/2017/07/07/pondering-conversion-from-hfs-apfs

Mike Bombich of Carbon Copy Cloner has an interesting post about APFS.
His current recommendation:

"However, I'm going to make a bold suggestion: Don't convert your
production startup disk to APFS this Fall. Wait for the new filesystem
to get some more mileage before making the switch."

The rest of the blog explains why, and a big part of it is almost no
documentation, so developers at least are still in the dark about many
details and even entire features such as snapshots. But Apple isn't
caught up either--Finder can't currently correctly calculate how much
space a folder uses.

--
gastropod


____________TidBITS Talk Participation Guidelines____________
Post only when you have something substantive to contribute.
Be polite and constructive, and comment on posts, not people.
Quote sparingly, if at all. We all read the previous message.
Start threads with a new message to [hidden email].
Read archives at: http://tidbits.com/pipermail/tidbits-talk/
Unsubscribe at: http://tidbits.com/mailman/options/tidbits-talk
____Mailing List Manners: http://tidbits.com/series/1141 ____



____________TidBITS Talk Participation Guidelines____________
Post only when you have something substantive to contribute.
Be polite and constructive, and comment on posts, not people.
Quote sparingly, if at all. We all read the previous message.
Start threads with a new message to [hidden email].
Read archives at: http://tidbits.com/pipermail/tidbits-talk/
Unsubscribe at: http://tidbits.com/mailman/options/tidbits-talk
____Mailing List Manners: http://tidbits.com/series/1141 ____
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: "Pondering the conversion from HFS+ to APFS"

Rodney

On Jul 11, 2017, at 01:19, gastropod <[hidden email]> wrote:

"However, I'm going to make a bold suggestion: Don't convert your
production startup disk to APFS this Fall. Wait for the new filesystem
to get some more mileage before making the switch."

The new macOS may be the first release since I switched to the Mac 10 years ago that I don’t install immediately. I’ve been retired for most of those years, and I’ve had good backups, so I’ve looked forward to every new release and grabbed it as soon as it was available (and never had a problem).

I’m looking forward to the next one as well, but I’ll let others be the pioneers this time. I’m particularly concerned about my Drobo. I’ve always assumed that the Drobo appears to the OS as just a block level device like any other external disk, and the OS imposes a filesystem on it. If that’s the case, then the Drobo shouldn’t care what filesystem the OS uses, but I don’t know this for sure, so I’ll wait a while...



____________TidBITS Talk Participation Guidelines____________
Post only when you have something substantive to contribute.
Be polite and constructive, and comment on posts, not people.
Quote sparingly, if at all. We all read the previous message.
Start threads with a new message to [hidden email].
Read archives at: http://tidbits.com/pipermail/tidbits-talk/
Unsubscribe at: http://tidbits.com/mailman/options/tidbits-talk
____Mailing List Manners: http://tidbits.com/series/1141 ____
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: "Pondering the conversion from HFS+ to APFS"

Al Varnell
On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 04:49 PM, Rodney wrote:
On Jul 11, 2017, at 01:19, gastropod <[hidden email]> wrote:
"However, I'm going to make a bold suggestion: Don't convert your
production startup disk to APFS this Fall. Wait for the new filesystem
to get some more mileage before making the switch."

The new macOS may be the first release since I switched to the Mac 10 years ago that I don’t install immediately. I’ve been retired for most of those years, and I’ve had good backups, so I’ve looked forward to every new release and grabbed it as soon as it was available (and never had a problem).

I’m looking forward to the next one as well, but I’ll let others be the pioneers this time. I’m particularly concerned about my Drobo. I’ve always assumed that the Drobo appears to the OS as just a block level device like any other external disk, and the OS imposes a filesystem on it. If that’s the case, then the Drobo shouldn’t care what filesystem the OS uses, but I don’t know this for sure, so I’ll wait a while...

Note that we have not been told that conversion to the new APFS will be mandatory with High Sierra. Assuming that is true in September, then the decision on when and whether to upgrade macOS should not be based on volume formatting, alone. I feel confident that HFS+ will still be an option for several more years.

-Al-
-- 
Al Varnell
Mountain View, CA







____________TidBITS Talk Participation Guidelines____________
Post only when you have something substantive to contribute.
Be polite and constructive, and comment on posts, not people.
Quote sparingly, if at all. We all read the previous message.
Start threads with a new message to [hidden email].
Read archives at: http://tidbits.com/pipermail/tidbits-talk/
Unsubscribe at: http://tidbits.com/mailman/options/tidbits-talk
____Mailing List Manners: http://tidbits.com/series/1141 ____
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: "Pondering the conversion from HFS+ to APFS"

Alan Forkosh
For the beta, the conversion is an opt-in option. I assume it will be the same way in the production release. I have opted in on my secondary machine, which I am using for testing.

Note that Carbon Copy Cloner claims that even now, they can back up APFS volumes to HFS+ ‘clones’, but can’t create APFS clones. So, I assume that if I wish to revert back, I can do so by creating a CCC HFS+  clone, reformatting my drive, and restoring the system. Non-trivial, but not rocket science.

Alan Forkosh                    Oakland, CA
[hidden email]
http://al4kosh.com



On Jul 10, 2017, at 6:01 PM, Al Varnell <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 04:49 PM, Rodney wrote:
On Jul 11, 2017, at 01:19, gastropod <[hidden email]> wrote:
"However, I'm going to make a bold suggestion: Don't convert your
production startup disk to APFS this Fall. Wait for the new filesystem
to get some more mileage before making the switch."

The new macOS may be the first release since I switched to the Mac 10 years ago that I don’t install immediately. I’ve been retired for most of those years, and I’ve had good backups, so I’ve looked forward to every new release and grabbed it as soon as it was available (and never had a problem).

I’m looking forward to the next one as well, but I’ll let others be the pioneers this time. I’m particularly concerned about my Drobo. I’ve always assumed that the Drobo appears to the OS as just a block level device like any other external disk, and the OS imposes a filesystem on it. If that’s the case, then the Drobo shouldn’t care what filesystem the OS uses, but I don’t know this for sure, so I’ll wait a while...

Note that we have not been told that conversion to the new APFS will be mandatory with High Sierra. Assuming that is true in September, then the decision on when and whether to upgrade macOS should not be based on volume formatting, alone. I feel confident that HFS+ will still be an option for several more years.

-Al-
-- 
Al Varnell
Mountain View, CA






____________TidBITS Talk Participation Guidelines____________
Post only when you have something substantive to contribute.
Be polite and constructive, and comment on posts, not people.
Quote sparingly, if at all. We all read the previous message.
Start threads with a new message to [hidden email].
Read archives at: http://tidbits.com/pipermail/tidbits-talk/
Unsubscribe at: http://tidbits.com/mailman/options/tidbits-talk
____Mailing List Manners: http://tidbits.com/series/1141 ____




____________TidBITS Talk Participation Guidelines____________
Post only when you have something substantive to contribute.
Be polite and constructive, and comment on posts, not people.
Quote sparingly, if at all. We all read the previous message.
Start threads with a new message to [hidden email].
Read archives at: http://tidbits.com/pipermail/tidbits-talk/
Unsubscribe at: http://tidbits.com/mailman/options/tidbits-talk
____Mailing List Manners: http://tidbits.com/series/1141 ____
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: "Pondering the conversion from HFS+ to APFS"

Ryoichi Morita-4
I have plenty of time now since I’ve retired. I used to be a programmer on IBM mid-range computers for almost 30 years. Tinkering with the new piece of software is in my blood, sort of. I’ve always beta tested Mac OS and enjoyed the challenge. Although the beta testing involved the risk, it usually went smoothly for the most part. Of course, there were a few apps that quit working, but I was usually able to find ways to get around the inconveniences. 

Sadly, High Sierra turned out to be a total disaster. It hung during the installation and completely destroyed my (homegrown) fusion drive in my Mac mini. I had no choice but recreate the drive by entering commands into the Terminal app and restore everything from the backup. My computer was down for two days. From what I’ve read on the Mac discussion groups afterwards, it seems High Sierra does not support fusion drives, yet. I have no choice but stay away from it for a while. 

Ryoichi Morita



____________TidBITS Talk Participation Guidelines____________
Post only when you have something substantive to contribute.
Be polite and constructive, and comment on posts, not people.
Quote sparingly, if at all. We all read the previous message.
Start threads with a new message to [hidden email].
Read archives at: http://tidbits.com/pipermail/tidbits-talk/
Unsubscribe at: http://tidbits.com/mailman/options/tidbits-talk
____Mailing List Manners: http://tidbits.com/series/1141 ____
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: "Pondering the conversion from HFS+ to APFS"

Al Varnell
On Jul 10, 2017, at 11:08 PM, Ryoichi Morita wrote:
I have plenty of time now since I’ve retired. I used to be a programmer on IBM mid-range computers for almost 30 years. Tinkering with the new piece of software is in my blood, sort of. I’ve always beta tested Mac OS and enjoyed the challenge. Although the beta testing involved the risk, it usually went smoothly for the most part. Of course, there were a few apps that quit working, but I was usually able to find ways to get around the inconveniences. 

Sadly, High Sierra turned out to be a total disaster. It hung during the installation and completely destroyed my (homegrown) fusion drive in my Mac mini. I had no choice but recreate the drive by entering commands into the Terminal app and restore everything from the backup. My computer was down for two days. From what I’ve read on the Mac discussion groups afterwards, it seems High Sierra does not support fusion drives, yet. I have no choice but stay away from it for a while. 

Ryoichi Morita

Actually, it isn't High Sierra that does not yet support Fusion Drives, it's APFS, which as has been mentioned already, is optional. Had you opted out of the conversion, I suspect it would not have been a disaster at all.


Sent from Janet's iPad

-Al-
-- 
Al Varnell
Mountain View, CA



____________TidBITS Talk Participation Guidelines____________
Post only when you have something substantive to contribute.
Be polite and constructive, and comment on posts, not people.
Quote sparingly, if at all. We all read the previous message.
Start threads with a new message to [hidden email].
Read archives at: http://tidbits.com/pipermail/tidbits-talk/
Unsubscribe at: http://tidbits.com/mailman/options/tidbits-talk
____Mailing List Manners: http://tidbits.com/series/1141 ____
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: "Pondering the conversion from HFS+ to APFS"

David Ross
In reply to this post by Al Varnell
On 7/10/17 9:01 PM, Al Varnell wrote:
Note that we have not been told that conversion to the new APFS will be mandatory with High Sierra. Assuming that is true in September, then the decision on when and whether to upgrade macOS should not be based on volume formatting, alone. I feel confident that HFS+ will still be an option for several more years.
Speculation at MacAdmins conference this week.

Some data points.
APFS has all kinds of new security features built in.
Apple is locking down the OS more and more. SIP anyone?
Apple is forcing things faster and faster based on looking back at other major overhauls.

Speculation
APFS may be mandatory in the near future. Guesses are tending to 10.14.
Many Apps will break at this point in time. Especially older ones. (CS6 or that ancient CAD app you use?)
When will disabling SIP go away?
Will we still have access to plists and defaults write?
Does Apple care that many of us will be upset?

David



____________TidBITS Talk Participation Guidelines____________
Post only when you have something substantive to contribute.
Be polite and constructive, and comment on posts, not people.
Quote sparingly, if at all. We all read the previous message.
Start threads with a new message to [hidden email].
Read archives at: http://tidbits.com/pipermail/tidbits-talk/
Unsubscribe at: http://tidbits.com/mailman/options/tidbits-talk
____Mailing List Manners: http://tidbits.com/series/1141 ____
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: "Pondering the conversion from HFS+ to APFS"

Ryoichi Morita-4

On Jul 12, 2017, at 6:52 AM, David Ross <[hidden email]> wrote:

Apple is locking down the OS more and more. SIP anyone?

I rely heavily on TotalFinder and TotalSpaces that require disabling SIP. I’ll be very upset if I cannot use them any longer.
 
Does Apple care that many of us will be upset?

Probably not. 

Ryoichi Morita




____________TidBITS Talk Participation Guidelines____________
Post only when you have something substantive to contribute.
Be polite and constructive, and comment on posts, not people.
Quote sparingly, if at all. We all read the previous message.
Start threads with a new message to [hidden email].
Read archives at: http://tidbits.com/pipermail/tidbits-talk/
Unsubscribe at: http://tidbits.com/mailman/options/tidbits-talk
____Mailing List Manners: http://tidbits.com/series/1141 ____
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: "Pondering the conversion from HFS+ to APFS"

"John Turner the Bear😎"
Unfortunately there have been several important issues that we have all been concerned about and not much help has been forthcoming. I don’t think that Jobs would have been pleased.

Bear😎

On Jul 12, 2017, 11:00 AM -0400, Ryoichi Morita <[hidden email]>, wrote:

On Jul 12, 2017, at 6:52 AM, David Ross <[hidden email]> wrote:

Apple is locking down the OS more and more. SIP anyone?

I rely heavily on TotalFinder and TotalSpaces that require disabling SIP. I’ll be very upset if I cannot use them any longer.
 
Does Apple care that many of us will be upset?

Probably not. 

Ryoichi Morita



____________TidBITS Talk Participation Guidelines____________
Post only when you have something substantive to contribute.
Be polite and constructive, and comment on posts, not people.
Quote sparingly, if at all. We all read the previous message.
Start threads with a new message to [hidden email].
Read archives at: http://tidbits.com/pipermail/tidbits-talk/
Unsubscribe at: http://tidbits.com/mailman/options/tidbits-talk
____Mailing List Manners: http://tidbits.com/series/1141 ____



____________TidBITS Talk Participation Guidelines____________
Post only when you have something substantive to contribute.
Be polite and constructive, and comment on posts, not people.
Quote sparingly, if at all. We all read the previous message.
Start threads with a new message to [hidden email].
Read archives at: http://tidbits.com/pipermail/tidbits-talk/
Unsubscribe at: http://tidbits.com/mailman/options/tidbits-talk
____Mailing List Manners: http://tidbits.com/series/1141 ____
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: "Pondering the conversion from HFS+ to APFS"

Travis Butler
In reply to this post by David Ross

On Jul 12, 2017, at 8:52 AM, David Ross <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 7/10/17 9:01 PM, Al Varnell wrote:
Note that we have not been told that conversion to the new APFS will be mandatory with High Sierra. Assuming that is true in September, then the decision on when and whether to upgrade macOS should not be based on volume formatting, alone. I feel confident that HFS+ will still be an option for several more years.
Speculation at MacAdmins conference this week.

Speculation
APFS may be mandatory in the near future. Guesses are tending to 10.14.
Many Apps will break at this point in time. Especially older ones. (CS6 or that ancient CAD app you use?)
When will disabling SIP go away?
Will we still have access to plists and defaults write?
Does Apple care that many of us will be upset?

Does anyone actually have REAL EVIDENCE to back up these 'suspicions'?

This kind of paranoid doom-and-gloom forecasting has been going on for several releases now. File Quarantine in Leopard, which became Gatekeeper in Lion. Hiding the Library folder by default. The App Store would eliminate all non-App Store software installation. And on, and on, and on. Off the top of my head, I can’t think of a single one of these worst-case scenarios that has come to pass in reality. Instead, these things have been what was advertised - protections for the average users that are Apple’s bread and butter, which can be overridden at the skill level where overriding them might be reasonable.

So far, I haven’t seen any evidence that the sky is falling.





____________TidBITS Talk Participation Guidelines____________
Post only when you have something substantive to contribute.
Be polite and constructive, and comment on posts, not people.
Quote sparingly, if at all. We all read the previous message.
Start threads with a new message to [hidden email].
Read archives at: http://tidbits.com/pipermail/tidbits-talk/
Unsubscribe at: http://tidbits.com/mailman/options/tidbits-talk
____Mailing List Manners: http://tidbits.com/series/1141 ____
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: "Pondering the conversion from HFS+ to APFS"

David Ross
In reply to this post by "John Turner the Bear😎"
Jobs always wanted a totally closed product line.

On 7/12/17 11:04 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
I don’t think that Jobs would have been pleased.





____________TidBITS Talk Participation Guidelines____________
Post only when you have something substantive to contribute.
Be polite and constructive, and comment on posts, not people.
Quote sparingly, if at all. We all read the previous message.
Start threads with a new message to [hidden email].
Read archives at: http://tidbits.com/pipermail/tidbits-talk/
Unsubscribe at: http://tidbits.com/mailman/options/tidbits-talk
____Mailing List Manners: http://tidbits.com/series/1141 ____
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: "Pondering the conversion from HFS+ to APFS"

David Ross
In reply to this post by Travis Butler
We I did put Speculation in bold.

But the speculation comes from people developing MDMs, munki tools, and managing 1000s of systems. Basically Apple is letting them know they don't like client system agents and want everything configured via profiles.

And if you dig into the tech specs for APFS (iOS dev notes are a key here) there's a lot about the file system that will let Apple do SIP like things.

This and dozens of other small data points is leading all of us to think about a Mac future that might be more like iOS than we like. And at least be prepared for it.

But maybe I'll just stop talking about such things here if it upsets too many people.

But Adam knows the people who attend these conferences. Especially the ones giving presentations. I suspect he'll agree with me that they aren't stupid or prone to fear mongering. Well mostly. :)

David

On 7/12/17 11:55 AM, Travis Butler wrote:

On Jul 12, 2017, at 8:52 AM, David Ross <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 7/10/17 9:01 PM, Al Varnell wrote:
Note that we have not been told that conversion to the new APFS will be mandatory with High Sierra. Assuming that is true in September, then the decision on when and whether to upgrade macOS should not be based on volume formatting, alone. I feel confident that HFS+ will still be an option for several more years.
Speculation at MacAdmins conference this week.

Speculation
APFS may be mandatory in the near future. Guesses are tending to 10.14.
Many Apps will break at this point in time. Especially older ones. (CS6 or that ancient CAD app you use?)
When will disabling SIP go away?
Will we still have access to plists and defaults write?
Does Apple care that many of us will be upset?

Does anyone actually have REAL EVIDENCE to back up these 'suspicions'?

This kind of paranoid doom-and-gloom forecasting has been going on for several releases now. File Quarantine in Leopard, which became Gatekeeper in Lion. Hiding the Library folder by default. The App Store would eliminate all non-App Store software installation. And on, and on, and on. Off the top of my head, I can’t think of a single one of these worst-case scenarios that has come to pass in reality. Instead, these things have been what was advertised - protections for the average users that are Apple’s bread and butter, which can be overridden at the skill level where overriding them might be reasonable.

So far, I haven’t seen any evidence that the sky is falling.





____________TidBITS Talk Participation Guidelines____________
Post only when you have something substantive to contribute.
Be polite and constructive, and comment on posts, not people.
Quote sparingly, if at all. We all read the previous message.
Start threads with a new message to [hidden email].
Read archives at: http://tidbits.com/pipermail/tidbits-talk/
Unsubscribe at: http://tidbits.com/mailman/options/tidbits-talk
____Mailing List Manners: http://tidbits.com/series/1141 ____




____________TidBITS Talk Participation Guidelines____________
Post only when you have something substantive to contribute.
Be polite and constructive, and comment on posts, not people.
Quote sparingly, if at all. We all read the previous message.
Start threads with a new message to [hidden email].
Read archives at: http://tidbits.com/pipermail/tidbits-talk/
Unsubscribe at: http://tidbits.com/mailman/options/tidbits-talk
____Mailing List Manners: http://tidbits.com/series/1141 ____
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: "Pondering the conversion from HFS+ to APFS"

Lynn Appleget-2

What is SIP?


On 7/12/17 2:31 , David Ross wrote:
We I did put Speculation in bold.

But the speculation comes from people developing MDMs, munki tools, and managing 1000s of systems. Basically Apple is letting them know they don't like client system agents and want everything configured via profiles.

And if you dig into the tech specs for APFS (iOS dev notes are a key here) there's a lot about the file system that will let Apple do SIP like things.

This and dozens of other small data points is leading all of us to think about a Mac future that might be more like iOS than we like. And at least be prepared for it.

But maybe I'll just stop talking about such things here if it upsets too many people.

But Adam knows the people who attend these conferences. Especially the ones giving presentations. I suspect he'll agree with me that they aren't stupid or prone to fear mongering. Well mostly. :)

David

On 7/12/17 11:55 AM, Travis Butler wrote:
 

-- 
--------------------------- 
Lynn Appleget
Appleget Associates, Inc
http://applegetassoc.com
Phone: 828 837-3633
Fax: 877-841-6020



____________TidBITS Talk Participation Guidelines____________
Post only when you have something substantive to contribute.
Be polite and constructive, and comment on posts, not people.
Quote sparingly, if at all. We all read the previous message.
Start threads with a new message to [hidden email].
Read archives at: http://tidbits.com/pipermail/tidbits-talk/
Unsubscribe at: http://tidbits.com/mailman/options/tidbits-talk
____Mailing List Manners: http://tidbits.com/series/1141 ____
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: "Pondering the conversion from HFS+ to APFS"

David Ross
Sorry but I can't resist.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=sip+mac

On 7/12/17 2:34 PM, Lynn Appleget wrote:

What is SIP?


On 7/12/17 2:31 , David Ross wrote:
We I did put Speculation in bold.

But the speculation comes from people developing MDMs, munki tools, and managing 1000s of systems. Basically Apple is letting them know they don't like client system agents and want everything configured via profiles.

And if you dig into the tech specs for APFS (iOS dev notes are a key here) there's a lot about the file system that will let Apple do SIP like things.

This and dozens of other small data points is leading all of us to think about a Mac future that might be more like iOS than we like. And at least be prepared for it.

But maybe I'll just stop talking about such things here if it upsets too many people.

But Adam knows the people who attend these conferences. Especially the ones giving presentations. I suspect he'll agree with me that they aren't stupid or prone to fear mongering. Well mostly. :)

David

On 7/12/17 11:55 AM, Travis Butler wrote:
 

-- 
--------------------------- 
Lynn Appleget
Appleget Associates, Inc
http://applegetassoc.com
Phone: 828 837-3633
Fax: 877-841-6020



____________TidBITS Talk Participation Guidelines____________
Post only when you have something substantive to contribute.
Be polite and constructive, and comment on posts, not people.
Quote sparingly, if at all. We all read the previous message.
Start threads with a new message to [hidden email].
Read archives at: http://tidbits.com/pipermail/tidbits-talk/
Unsubscribe at: http://tidbits.com/mailman/options/tidbits-talk
____Mailing List Manners: http://tidbits.com/series/1141 ____




____________TidBITS Talk Participation Guidelines____________
Post only when you have something substantive to contribute.
Be polite and constructive, and comment on posts, not people.
Quote sparingly, if at all. We all read the previous message.
Start threads with a new message to [hidden email].
Read archives at: http://tidbits.com/pipermail/tidbits-talk/
Unsubscribe at: http://tidbits.com/mailman/options/tidbits-talk
____Mailing List Manners: http://tidbits.com/series/1141 ____
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: "Pondering the conversion from HFS+ to APFS"

Travis Butler
In reply to this post by David Ross

> On Jul 12, 2017, at 1:31 PM, David Ross <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> We I did put Speculation in bold.
>
> But the speculation comes from people developing MDMs, munki tools, and managing 1000s of systems. Basically Apple is letting them know they don't like client system agents and want everything configured via profiles.
>
> And if you dig into the tech specs for APFS (iOS dev notes are a key here) there's a lot about the file system that will let Apple do SIP like things.
>
> This and dozens of other small data points is leading all of us to think about a Mac future that might be more like iOS than we like. And at least be prepared for it.
>
> But maybe I'll just stop talking about such things here if it upsets too many people.

I’m sorry, but to be blunt: This doesn’t sound any different than any of the rhetoric in any of the earlier controversies I cited. You have people with a vested interest in the way things work now Viewing With Alarm when they see a possible threat to the way they want to work. 'there's a lot about the file system that will let Apple do SIP like things' - is that really the most likely interpretation? Or is it more likely to be a Gatekeeper-like situation, where something really was implemented for the stated reason and the Evil Lockdown Threat failed to materialize?

And I get upset about this because it punches one of my frequent hot buttons: tech enthusiasts promoting the desires of tech enthusiasts over the interests of the ordinary users that make up most of the userbase. SIP* is not a concern for the average user, and it doesn’t bother me to take the five minutes needed to disable it, install Default Folder, and re-enable it. Given the current security environment, I feel far more comfortable having SIP in place by default than not; and I *absolutely* think it makes the most sense to enable it by default for the average user.

As long as the restrictions can be bypassed by the people with the knowledge to handle it safely, I’m satisfied. And so far, every single sky-is-falling claim that this ability would be taken away has turned into nothing.

*(To Lynn: SIP stands for System Integrity Protection. This is basically a lockdown of the core MacOS system files and folders, that prevents other software from altering the essential foundation of the operating system. The stated justification is security; even if a privilege escalation exploit manages to get 'root' access (the highest account level available, with full privileges), it still shouldn't be able to infect the core OS. The limitation is that some software that works at a low level of the OS - like Default Folder - can’t be installed while SIP is active. Installing this software becomes a matter of turning SIP off, rebooting, installing the software, turning SIP back on, and rebooting again.)

> But Adam knows the people who attend these conferences. Especially the ones giving presentations. I suspect he'll agree with me that they aren't stupid or prone to fear mongering. Well mostly. :)

IIRC, many of the people raising the issues in the past were also in that group. I’m still not convinced.





____________TidBITS Talk Participation Guidelines____________
Post only when you have something substantive to contribute.
Be polite and constructive, and comment on posts, not people.
Quote sparingly, if at all. We all read the previous message.
Start threads with a new message to [hidden email].
Read archives at: http://tidbits.com/pipermail/tidbits-talk/
Unsubscribe at: http://tidbits.com/mailman/options/tidbits-talk
____Mailing List Manners: http://tidbits.com/series/1141 ____
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: "Pondering the conversion from HFS+ to APFS"

Doug Hogg
In reply to this post by Travis Butler
Lol…my wife is with you — she doesn’t like all my “old macs cluttering up the place”.

:-)

Doug


> On Jul 12, 2017, at 3:52 PM, gastropod <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Yet more old macs cluttering up the
> place, sigh.




____________TidBITS Talk Participation Guidelines____________
Post only when you have something substantive to contribute.
Be polite and constructive, and comment on posts, not people.
Quote sparingly, if at all. We all read the previous message.
Start threads with a new message to [hidden email].
Read archives at: http://tidbits.com/pipermail/tidbits-talk/
Unsubscribe at: http://tidbits.com/mailman/options/tidbits-talk
____Mailing List Manners: http://tidbits.com/series/1141 ____
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: "Pondering the conversion from HFS+ to APFS"

Randy B. Singer
In reply to this post by Travis Butler

On Jul 12, 2017, at 2:15 PM, Travis Butler wrote:

> And I get upset about this because it punches one of my frequent hot buttons: tech enthusiasts promoting the desires of tech enthusiasts over the interests of the ordinary users that make up most of the userbase.

Yes, I feel the same way.  Especially when the following phrases appear:

"Does Apple care that many of us will be upset?"

"Jobs always wanted a totally closed product line."

Apple does care about how their users feel about changes to the Macintosh, but they know that even if a few folks get frustrated by change that by and large users want improved performance and excellent security above all else.  I'm sure that Apple will do everything that they can to make changes that accomplish those goals as painless as possible.  But by necessity they need to be accomplished, or the Macintosh would be doomed.

I hear from folks who have switched to the Macintosh from Windows all the time.  The number one reason that they give for switching is that the Macintosh is less prone to security issues and it requires less fettling to accomplish that increased security.

Even now you can do a search of the Web and find "news" stories that make it sound like the Macintosh is currently being bombarded by new malware and other threats.  Imagine if those stories weren't hyperbole?  Would anyone consider a Macintosh over a Windows PC then?

It seems to me that Apple is on the right path.


___________________________________________
Randy B. Singer
Co-author of The Macintosh Bible (4th, 5th, and 6th editions)

Macintosh OS X Routine Maintenance
http://www.macattorney.com/ts.html
___________________________________________






____________TidBITS Talk Participation Guidelines____________
Post only when you have something substantive to contribute.
Be polite and constructive, and comment on posts, not people.
Quote sparingly, if at all. We all read the previous message.
Start threads with a new message to [hidden email].
Read archives at: http://tidbits.com/pipermail/tidbits-talk/
Unsubscribe at: http://tidbits.com/mailman/options/tidbits-talk
____Mailing List Manners: http://tidbits.com/series/1141 ____
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: "Pondering the conversion from HFS+ to APFS"

Alexander Forbes

On Jul 13, 2017, at 12:53 AM, Randy B. Singer <[hidden email]> wrote:

Apple does care about how their users feel about changes to the Macintosh, but they know that even if a few folks get frustrated by change that by and large users want improved performance and excellent security above all else.

Respectfully, I’d suggest the issue isn't “change” per se. I think the concern is being left in the lurch once again with few transition options. Suddenly being obliged to switch from Pages to iBooks Author in the middle of a big longtime project was a big inconvenience for me, and undoubtedly many annoyed folks who still think of themselves as total Apple users. But I’m retired, so it was only another one-shot inconvenience for me. A department manager in charge of a big project with a drop-dead date.might be justified in saying something a little stronger about that.

Of course, we know that production shops would use products like Adobe with more professional feature sets and a better reliability track record on updates.

I am not particularly worried about the switch to APFS personally, but have concerns such as what will happen when I want to update my archives drive cache on my 2009 Mac Pro suddenly capped out on El Capitan, from my iMac archives drive updated under High Sierra, with wi-fi Sharing. With the opacity of details from the beta, we’ll probably just have to wait and see.

Alex




____________TidBITS Talk Participation Guidelines____________
Post only when you have something substantive to contribute.
Be polite and constructive, and comment on posts, not people.
Quote sparingly, if at all. We all read the previous message.
Start threads with a new message to [hidden email].
Read archives at: http://tidbits.com/pipermail/tidbits-talk/
Unsubscribe at: http://tidbits.com/mailman/options/tidbits-talk
____Mailing List Manners: http://tidbits.com/series/1141 ____
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: "Pondering the conversion from HFS+ to APFS"

Curtis Wilcox

> On Jul 13, 2017, at 9:38 AM, Alexander Forbes <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I am not particularly worried about the switch to APFS personally, but have concerns such as what will happen when I want to update my archives drive cache on my 2009 Mac Pro suddenly capped out on El Capitan, from my iMac archives drive updated under High Sierra, with wi-fi Sharing. With the opacity of details from the beta, we’ll probably just have to wait and see.

What is an "archives drive cache?" Do you mean a copy of the data you have on your iMac? High Sierra is absolutely not removing the ability to use HFS+ drives; I believe macOS can still read/write the original HFS format (from 1985) and while it's plausible that a future macOS version might not be able to be boot from an HFS+ drive, I don't think it will lose the ability to read/write it. If you have an external drive you wish to attach to a Mac running an older OS, it would be best not to format that drive as APFS.

By "wi-fi sharing" do you mean enabling File Sharing on one of the Macs and using a WiFi network connection, rather than a wired network? File Sharing abstracts away the drive's format so it matters even less whether it's HFS+ or not. Mac's can't directly write to NTFS formatted disks but they can if the disk is shared over the network by a Windows computer.

Sierra was released seven years after the 2009 Mac Pro, that's hardly sudden. I'm sure Sierra's hardware requirements were stated at least three months before its release and El Capitan has continued to receive updates (those may cease after High Sierra's release).




____________TidBITS Talk Participation Guidelines____________
Post only when you have something substantive to contribute.
Be polite and constructive, and comment on posts, not people.
Quote sparingly, if at all. We all read the previous message.
Start threads with a new message to [hidden email].
Read archives at: http://tidbits.com/pipermail/tidbits-talk/
Unsubscribe at: http://tidbits.com/mailman/options/tidbits-talk
____Mailing List Manners: http://tidbits.com/series/1141 ____
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: "Pondering the conversion from HFS+ to APFS"

@lbutlr
In reply to this post by Al Varnell
On 10 Jul 2017, at 19:01, Al Varnell <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Note that we have not been told that conversion to the new APFS will be mandatory with High Sierra. Assuming that is true in September, then the decision on when and whether to upgrade macOS should not be based on volume formatting, alone. I feel confident that HFS+ will still be an option for several more years.

Well, a year.

I expect APFS to be required next year with 10.14.

--
Apple broke AppleScripting signatures in Mail.app, so no random signatures.




____________TidBITS Talk Participation Guidelines____________
Post only when you have something substantive to contribute.
Be polite and constructive, and comment on posts, not people.
Quote sparingly, if at all. We all read the previous message.
Start threads with a new message to [hidden email].
Read archives at: http://tidbits.com/pipermail/tidbits-talk/
Unsubscribe at: http://tidbits.com/mailman/options/tidbits-talk
____Mailing List Manners: http://tidbits.com/series/1141 ____
123
Loading...