Re: Beware iTunes 12.7 - it no longer handles apps (Brian L. Matthews)

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Re: Beware iTunes 12.7 - it no longer handles apps (Brian L. Matthews)

Hine Charles
Total contempt for the user.  After an MSE in Comp Sci, I worked for a company that was ‘We're Digital, your not.’  Before the MSE I sold for IBM. IBM was ‘Were IBM, your not.’  DEC was the second largest computer manufacturer, with networking and other technologies well ahead of the pack.  This is a disease not unique to the computer industry, witness Penn Central or US Steel.

Unix was developed on DEC machines.  DEC could have ‘owned’ the Unix market,’  as well as other markets, like workstations, where DEC’s technology was as good as, and in some cases better, than elsewhere.  But Unix wasn’t VAX/VMS. DEC was networking multiple operating systems, and boxes from big iron (TOPS10/20) to minicomputers and workstations to real time systems, running a variety of Operating Systems. Networking was relatively seamless.  DEC lead with Metcalf’s ethernet.  

Now DEC is no more.  Look at IBM now. 

Now, as an Apple user, I have to jump through hoops to do things with at least one iOS application that were VERY simple before.  When I replace my iPad and iPhone, I doubt I will purchase Apple products.  If I have the time and energy, I will get a virtual machine on my MacBook Pro, and explore moving to Linux, with mostly Open Source Applications. It will be aggravating loosing my IOS and Mac OS X application expenditure, from the App Store and elsewhere.  I just thank God that I am not trying to run a business with Mac products.  Walled Gardens, and shackles to a specific network Cloud,  may look attractive to vendors, but I at least don’t like them.  I hope some of the commercial iOS and Mac OS X applications I use are available on Linux and Android.  Not that I like Google either.  Do no evil; RIGHT!!!

I believe it was Alan Perlis who said something to the effect that, when using a new application, or a new function in an application, a well designed program will respond in the least unexpected manner.  I am unfamiliar with current UX practices, but I think there is a parallel.  When attempting to do a task, the interface should be consistent from function to function.  Function should be invoked in a standard way, where someone familiar with the OS, and the application, can almost instinctively find and invoke.the function.  I expect there are also a great variety of ‘guidelines’ informed by research in psychology and  perception.  I find even Apple applications are no longer instinctive.  Moreover, access to Apple application function seems to sporadically change with upgrades.

I think Apple UX for many years was FAR better than anyone else.  It is why I got my 80 year old mother a Mac SE in the 80’s. No longer.  Also, I really don’t think Apple adequately regression tests Apple applications on new versions of Mac OS X.  I also understand, only from hearsay, that another Apple strength was developer support.  Given App Store practices and UX, I suspect that is no longer the case.

charley hine

“The world hates change; yet it is the only thing that has brought progress” - Charles Kettering            There is change, and then .




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Re: Beware iTunes 12.7 - it no longer handles apps (Brian L. Matthews)

Rodney

On Sep 16, 2017, at 14:48, Hine Charles <[hidden email]> wrote:

Total contempt for the user.  After an MSE in Comp Sci, I worked for a company that was ‘We're Digital, your not.’  Before the MSE I sold for IBM. IBM was ‘Were IBM, your not.’

I’m not sure what my not has to do with anything. Perhaps you’re missing a couple of apostrophes in there somewhere…

I was told when I worked for IBM part-time as a student in the late 1960s, “We don’t care if we’re first, and we don’t care if we’re best. We just want to sell more of it than anybody else.” I saw a lot of that attitude later in my career, and that’s why I was never an IBM fan although I got my start on the IBM 360 and IBM 1130. I’ve always felt that IBM made their money by marketing to the more senior, and less technically literate, executives. Then, as prices fell and lower ranking and more technical people could approve purchases, they started having problems.

DEC was the second largest computer manufacturer, with networking and other technologies well ahead of the pack.

Yep. I’m not sure that there is a lot of hardware today that works as seamlessly as a mid-1980s VAXcluster. Bill Gates once described DEC as, “My favorite company,” and he illustrated that by hiring Dave Cutler, the designer of VMS, to build Windows NT. Have you noticed that WNT is VMS+1?

This is a disease not unique to the computer industry, witness Penn Central or US Steel.

Or Kodak, Blockbuster Video, American railroads in general, whatever.

Unix was developed on DEC machines. DEC could have ‘owned’ the Unix market,’  as well as other markets, like workstations, where DEC’s technology was as good as, and in some cases better, than elsewhere.

Yep. “VT100 compatible” set the standard for terminals. There were other great innovations such as DLT high capacity tape cartridges, and the list is a long one.

But Unix wasn’t VAX/VMS. DEC was networking multiple operating systems, and boxes from big iron (TOPS10/20) to minicomputers and workstations to real time systems, running a variety of Operating Systems. Networking was relatively seamless.  DEC lead with Metcalf’s ethernet.

Indeed they did. One of the things that made VMS such a stable OS (and still my favorite OS) was that the hardware and software were designed together. Later, in the age of Unix workstations, they came out with the Alpha chip, which was supposed to be a big deal at the time, but was a bit late. They saw the limitations of TCP/IP in the 80s, and pushed the next standard whose initials I’ve forgotten, but that standard was just too complex and such a resource hog that it fell on its face in the early 90s. DEC’s efforts were “a bridge too far”, so to speak.

Now DEC is no more.

True, but that wasn’t because of any contempt for their users, at least from my experience. I had just the opposite impression from the field service people to senior management in our local office, and this didn’t depend on whether my employer was spending a lot of money that quarter or not.

They also had a very enlightened attitude towards their employees. I knew several women who advanced from secretarial or equivalent jobs to senior management and field service engineers, and this was in the 1980s.

DEC was, as best I can tell, a very good company that just didn’t adapt to changing markets. It was, until near the end, maybe the biggest company still controlled by its founder. That makes for an agile company, but it makes it costly for that company to be wrong. I wonder if Jobs would’ve kept being right if he had lived. I wish we’d been able to find out, but we’ll never know.

Now, as an Apple user, I have to jump through hoops to do things with at least one iOS application that were VERY simple before.  When I replace my iPad and iPhone, I doubt I will purchase Apple products.

That’s an excellent decision. If iOS doesn’t meet your needs, then there is no reason to stick with it. Companies change direction, or don’t, for reasons of their own. I don’t understand why there are those who seem to treat this as a personal betrayal. Any company such as Apple is faced with all kinds of tradeoffs; market forces, development and support costs, security and privacy concerns, etc. There’ll always be a tradeoff between security and convenience.

I believe it was Alan Perlis who said something to the effect that, when using a new application, or a new function in an application, a well designed program will respond in the least unexpected manner.  I am unfamiliar with current UX practices, but I think there is a parallel.  When attempting to do a task, the interface should be consistent from function to function.  Function should be invoked in a standard way, where someone familiar with the OS, and the application, can almost instinctively find and invoke.the function.  I expect there are also a great variety of ‘guidelines’ informed by research in psychology and  perception.

I agree with that.

I find even Apple applications are no longer instinctive.

Or maybe you’re not as young as you used to be. I know I’m not…😒

Moreover, access to Apple application function seems to sporadically change with upgrades.

Some of that bugs me as well. I particularly have never liked Apple input devices. I hate the Apple TV remote. I’m still scratching my head, or whatever, over the Apple Pencil. Why didn’t they include some kind of clip, or what do you do with the end cap once you remove it? They seem sometimes to sacrifice usability for the sake of art these days.

I think Apple UX for many years was FAR better than anyone else.  It is why I got my 80 year old mother a Mac SE in the 80’s. No longer.

I sold my second, I think, generation iPad to an 82 year old friend who gave it to his 79 year old wife as a birthday present. She’d been a housewife all her life, and couldn’t even learn to use a mouse with a regular computer, but she really took to the iPad. Soon she was doing email, swapping photos with her grandkids, and having a great time. File this story under “anecdotal evidence” along with yours.

Also, I really don’t think Apple adequately regression tests Apple applications on new versions of Mac OS X.

I think that one of Apple’s strengths is limited product lines. They have far fewer platforms on which to test each new OS. Compare that to Windows, Unix, or Android where regression tests are damn near impossible.

“The world hates change; yet it is the only thing that has brought progress” - Charles Kettering            There is change, and then .

“Look before you leap,” and, “He who hesitates is lost” can’t both be right, now can they?

Regardless, “Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine.” We hope it is for the best, but best for whom?




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Re: Beware iTunes 12.7 - it no longer handles apps (Brian L. Matthews)

Richard Rettke

On 18 Sep 2017, at 15:12, Rodney [hidden email] wrote:

I find even Apple applications are no longer instinctive.

Or maybe you’re not as young as you used to be. I know I’m not…😒

It's not just Apple Apps that are no longer intuitive (to my 50 years in the IT business) mind. I see young kids using apps like Discord (web, windows, Mac, iOS, Android) just running circles around me in their understanding of how to navigate and use features. As I get older I read a lot more documentation and do a lot more searches to figure out how things work.

I too wish old features remained and were accessible, but I think we suffer from the people who write code having the disposable mindset. Don't like something, throw it out, think you have a better way, throw out the old, appliance breaks, throw it out. I didn't grow up that way.

So I do think the angst many of us feel is not just an Apple product phenomena, it's more cultural and widespread than that.

--
Richard Rettke
Laus Deo
Non sibi sed patriae

https://about.me/rerettke




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Re: Beware iTunes 12.7 - it no longer handles apps (Brian L. Matthews)

Zeedar Marc-2

> On Sep 18, 2017, at 1:48 PM, Richard Rettke <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> So I do think the angst many of us feel is not just an Apple product phenomena, it's more cultural and widespread than that.

A lot of it is a speed thing. Apple has set their standard as annual OS upgrades, which is a bit insane. It's overkill, like buying a new car every year. By the time you get used to it, it's all new and different. (I speak both from developer's viewpoint and customer's, as both environments change every year.)

But in today's mobile world (and the internet world), things move crazy fast, so nothing is every really done or settled or properly designed. Bugs are introduced, never get fixed, and there's no time for documentation. Apps are throw-aways, like magazine issues, temporary things of minimal value.

I don't know if this pace is sustainable, or what to do about it. The good news is that if you don't like how something works, just wait a year -- it might change again!


Marc Zeedar
Publisher, xDev Magazine and xDevLibrary
www.xdevmag.com | www.xdevlibrary.com







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Re: Beware iTunes 12.7 - it no longer handles apps (Brian L. Matthews)

M.Crump
So, when a hacker or a security researcher, provides a CVE detailing a flaw or bug in an app in iOS or macOS, Apple will do a point update and advise that we are just "perfecting things under the hood." Take a look at the point releases after ever major OS release since Snow Leopard and look at the CVE's. Good news though, I'm not forced to upgrade on macOS like I am on iOS. Hurry up and wait! 

On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 5:00 PM Zeedar Marc <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sep 18, 2017, at 1:48 PM, Richard Rettke <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> So I do think the angst many of us feel is not just an Apple product phenomena, it's more cultural and widespread than that.

A lot of it is a speed thing. Apple has set their standard as annual OS upgrades, which is a bit insane. It's overkill, like buying a new car every year. By the time you get used to it, it's all new and different. (I speak both from developer's viewpoint and customer's, as both environments change every year.)

But in today's mobile world (and the internet world), things move crazy fast, so nothing is every really done or settled or properly designed. Bugs are introduced, never get fixed, and there's no time for documentation. Apps are throw-aways, like magazine issues, temporary things of minimal value.

I don't know if this pace is sustainable, or what to do about it. The good news is that if you don't like how something works, just wait a year -- it might change again!


Marc Zeedar
Publisher, xDev Magazine and xDevLibrary
www.xdevmag.com | www.xdevlibrary.com







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--
This User is now Bonded to you in a One and Zero Transaction. 



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Re: Beware iTunes 12.7 - it no longer handles apps (Brian L. Matthews)

dianed143@comcast.net
In reply to this post by Zeedar Marc-2

> On Sep 18, 2017, at 4:57 PM, Zeedar Marc <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I don't know if this pace is sustainable, or what to do about it. The good news is that if you don't like how something works, just wait a year -- it might change again!

Usually for the worse! I blame Intuit for the yearly update thing after QB 6.

I miss the days where there was excitement over a major upgrade, otherwise it was bug fixes and maybe a few enhancements. I barely know my OS and iOS at all and I used to know this stuff inside and out.

Diane


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Re: Beware iTunes 12.7 - it no longer handles apps (Brian L. Matthews)

dianed143@comcast.net
I wanted to think this wasn’t a big deal and deleted most of the emails after scanning them.

I upgrade itunes last week, which is odd for me to do so prior to backing up my phone etc. (I have my library on an external drive and it’s been more of a pain to manage there).

Anyway, now of course I can’t see my apps. I always used iTunes to rearrange apps on the phone because it’s way easier for me to use a mouse.

Is the phone now my only option to move app icons around into folders etc?

Diane


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Re: Beware iTunes 12.7 - it no longer handles apps (Brian L. Matthews)

Al Varnell
On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 05:30 AM, Diane wrote:
>
> I wanted to think this wasn’t a big deal and deleted most of the emails after scanning them.
>
> I upgrade itunes last week, which is odd for me to do so prior to backing up my phone etc. (I have my library on an external drive and it’s been more of a pain to manage there).
>
> Anyway, now of course I can’t see my apps. I always used iTunes to rearrange apps on the phone because it’s way easier for me to use a mouse.
>
> Is the phone now my only option to move app icons around into folders etc?

Technically we'll have to wait until next week to see what, if anything High Sierra has to offer along those lines, but I wouldn't hold out much hope of ever being able to use your Mac in that way again.

-Al-
--
Al Varnell
Mountain View, CA







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Re: Beware iTunes 12.7 - it no longer handles apps (Brian L. Matthews)

dianed143@comcast.net

> On Sep 20, 2017, at 8:50 AM, Al Varnell <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 05:30 AM, Diane wrote:
>>
>> I wanted to think this wasn’t a big deal and deleted most of the emails after scanning them.
>>
>> I upgrade itunes last week, which is odd for me to do so prior to backing up my phone etc. (I have my library on an external drive and it’s been more of a pain to manage there).
>>
>> Anyway, now of course I can’t see my apps. I always used iTunes to rearrange apps on the phone because it’s way easier for me to use a mouse.
>>
>> Is the phone now my only option to move app icons around into folders etc?
>
> Technically we'll have to wait until next week to see what, if anything High Sierra has to offer along those lines, but I wouldn't hold out much hope of ever being able to use your Mac in that way again.

That blows! I hate moving apps from one screen to the next on the phone :(

Diane


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Re: Beware iTunes 12.7 - it no longer handles apps (Brian L. Matthews)

Jerry King
Like Diane I will miss not being able to move apps on iOS screens from within iTunes.
However there is one trick. Make a slot open in the dock of the iOS device. Move your desired app to the slot. Go to the desired screen and move the app to where you want it

Clumsy but did work recently.


Jerry


> On Sep 20, 2017, at 8:54 AM, Diane <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>> On Sep 20, 2017, at 8:50 AM, Al Varnell <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 05:30 AM, Diane wrote:
>>>
>>> I wanted to think this wasn’t a big deal and deleted most of the emails after scanning them.
>>>
>>> I upgrade itunes last week, which is odd for me to do so prior to backing up my phone etc. (I have my library on an external drive and it’s been more of a pain to manage there).
>>>
>>> Anyway, now of course I can’t see my apps. I always used iTunes to rearrange apps on the phone because it’s way easier for me to use a mouse.
>>>
>>> Is the phone now my only option to move app icons around into folders etc?
>>
>> Technically we'll have to wait until next week to see what, if anything High Sierra has to offer along those lines, but I wouldn't hold out much hope of ever being able to use your Mac in that way again.
>
> That blows! I hate moving apps from one screen to the next on the phone :(
>
> Diane
>
>
> ____________TidBITS Talk Participation Guidelines____________
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Re: Beware iTunes 12.7 - it no longer handles apps (Brian L. Matthews)

Rodney
In reply to this post by dianed143@comcast.net

On Sep 20, 2017, at 14:54, Diane <[hidden email]> wrote:

That blows! I hate moving apps from one screen to the next on the phone :(

I totally agree.

My app collection covers a few screens, and it would cover more if I didn’t group similar apps into folders. I have a folder for photography apps, one for travel-related apps, etc.

One trick I’ve found that does help on the phone when I want to do this is to create a folder, then drag it into the dock. Then, when I go from screen to screen the folder is still visible. It is easy to drop apps into it. When I’m done, I go back to the screen where I want the folder to reside and drag it out of the dock. 



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Re: Beware iTunes 12.7 - it no longer handles apps (Brian L. Matthews)

Ray Kloss
The best trick from iTunes was being able to move an entire page/screen of apps and rearrange their order. That was nice.


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Re: Beware iTunes 12.7 - it no longer handles apps (Brian L. Matthews)

Doug Miller
In reply to this post by dianed143@comcast.net

> On Sep 20, 2017, at 8:30 AM, Diane <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> Anyway, now of course I can’t see my apps. I always used iTunes to rearrange apps on the phone because it’s way easier for me to use a mouse.
>
> Is the phone now my only option to move app icons around into folders etc?

If you get the (free) app called "Apple Configurator 2" (it's from Apple, not a third party) from the Mac App Store, run it and connect an iPhone, iPad, or iPod Touch (with iOS7 or later), you should be able to double-click the device to show its info, go to Actions / Modify / Home Screen Layout menu option, and then re-arrange the icons as you like. Click the Apply button when you are done.

Apple Configurator is meant for, I believe, enterprises that purchase fleets of iPhones or iPads, to get them set up and locked down as required, but it also works for this purpose. It also seems to support installing apps that are stored on your Mac, FWIW.


--
Doug


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Re: Beware iTunes 12.7 - it no longer handles apps (Brian L. Matthews)

Nathan Raymond
On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 12:36 PM, Doug Miller <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sep 20, 2017, at 8:30 AM, Diane <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> Anyway, now of course I can’t see my apps. I always used iTunes to rearrange apps on the phone because it’s way easier for me to use a mouse.
>
> Is the phone now my only option to move app icons around into folders etc?

If you get the (free) app called "Apple Configurator 2" (it's from Apple, not a third party) from the Mac App Store, run it and connect an iPhone, iPad, or iPod Touch (with iOS7 or later), you should be able to double-click the device to show its info, go to Actions / Modify / Home Screen Layout menu option, and then re-arrange the icons as you like. Click the Apply button when you are done.

Apple Configurator is meant for, I believe, enterprises that purchase fleets of iPhones or iPads, to get them set up and locked down as required, but it also works for this purpose. It also seems to support installing apps that are stored on your Mac, FWIW.

Correct. I shared this link back on Sept. 13 in this thread (for those that missed it):


Basically most of the features that were removed from iTunes are still available in Apple Configurator 2 (which is a free program). It's also a generally useful tool for a parent who has a child with an iOS device:


- Nate



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Re: Beware iTunes 12.7 - it no longer handles apps (Brian L. Matthews)

@lbutlr
In reply to this post by dianed143@comcast.net
On Sep 20, 2017, at 6:30 AM, Diane <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Is the phone now my only option to move app icons around into folders etc?

Yes.

Do you move apps around frequently?

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Re: Beware iTunes 12.7 - it no longer handles apps (Brian L. Matthews)

dianed143@comcast.net

> On Sep 21, 2017, at 9:43 AM, @lbutlr <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On Sep 20, 2017, at 6:30 AM, Diane <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Is the phone now my only option to move app icons around into folders etc?
>
> Yes.
>
> Do you move apps around frequently?

Based on the ones hanging around outside folders, not frequently enough!

Thanks all for the tip on moving to an empty space on the bottom, I had not thought about that. And the app recommendation!

Diane


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Re: Beware iTunes 12.7 - it no longer handles apps (Brian L. Matthews)

Tanya Metaksa
In reply to this post by Nathan Raymond
I went searching for Apple Configurator 2 on the App store on my phone that has been upgraded to iOS 11 and could not find it. Has it disappeared?
Tanya K Metaksa
Jacksonville, FL 32217



On Sep 20, 2017, at 12:52 PM, Nathan Raymond <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 12:36 PM, Doug Miller <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sep 20, 2017, at 8:30 AM, Diane <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> Anyway, now of course I can’t see my apps. I always used iTunes to rearrange apps on the phone because it’s way easier for me to use a mouse.
>
> Is the phone now my only option to move app icons around into folders etc?

If you get the (free) app called "Apple Configurator 2" (it's from Apple, not a third party) from the Mac App Store, run it and connect an iPhone, iPad, or iPod Touch (with iOS7 or later), you should be able to double-click the device to show its info, go to Actions / Modify / Home Screen Layout menu option, and then re-arrange the icons as you like. Click the Apply button when you are done.

Apple Configurator is meant for, I believe, enterprises that purchase fleets of iPhones or iPads, to get them set up and locked down as required, but it also works for this purpose. It also seems to support installing apps that are stored on your Mac, FWIW.

Correct. I shared this link back on Sept. 13 in this thread (for those that missed it):


Basically most of the features that were removed from iTunes are still available in Apple Configurator 2 (which is a free program). It's also a generally useful tool for a parent who has a child with an iOS device:


- Nate


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Re: Beware iTunes 12.7 - it no longer handles apps (Brian L. Matthews)

Al Varnell

-Al-

On Sat, Sep 23, 2017 at 04:39 AM, Tanya Metaksa wrote:
I went searching for Apple Configurator 2 on the App store on my phone that has been upgraded to iOS 11 and could not find it. Has it disappeared?
Tanya K Metaksa
Jacksonville, FL 32217



On Sep 20, 2017, at 12:52 PM, Nathan Raymond <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 12:36 PM, Doug Miller <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sep 20, 2017, at 8:30 AM, Diane <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> Anyway, now of course I can’t see my apps. I always used iTunes to rearrange apps on the phone because it’s way easier for me to use a mouse.
>
> Is the phone now my only option to move app icons around into folders etc?

If you get the (free) app called "Apple Configurator 2" (it's from Apple, not a third party) from the Mac App Store, run it and connect an iPhone, iPad, or iPod Touch (with iOS7 or later), you should be able to double-click the device to show its info, go to Actions / Modify / Home Screen Layout menu option, and then re-arrange the icons as you like. Click the Apply button when you are done.

Apple Configurator is meant for, I believe, enterprises that purchase fleets of iPhones or iPads, to get them set up and locked down as required, but it also works for this purpose. It also seems to support installing apps that are stored on your Mac, FWIW.

Correct. I shared this link back on Sept. 13 in this thread (for those that missed it):


Basically most of the features that were removed from iTunes are still available in Apple Configurator 2 (which is a free program). It's also a generally useful tool for a parent who has a child with an iOS device:


- Nate



____________TidBITS Talk Participation Guidelines____________
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