DTP, Fonts, and Word.

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DTP, Fonts, and Word.

"John Turner the Bear😎"

Good Morning Friends!


I sent the below note to the Microsoft Community re: Word in Office 2016. I have huge problems with the Type faces I am using. Lots of suggestions were made to help…none worked. I got an email from James asking if I still needed help? Below is my response which kind of sums up my problems with DTP and Word.



Hi James,

I'm really not sure. I have come to realize that if I were to use Times New Roman or Calibri or Cambria I would have no problems at all. Apparently these fonts have everything needed to produce my work. The problem arises because I need to use two fonts that Word does not like.

I have tried all of the previous suggestions. The only one that seemed to work was to create a style for each font used. When I have to use a Hebrew word I have to select it and then click on the style. Then that word and all like it in the paragraph will be changed. I have a font that contains both the Greek and Hebrew Type faces that I need so that all the fonts I need for the book are two. This solution takes many, many hours to accomplish.

I finished two volumes and imported them into QuarkXpress 2016 and it immediately alerted me that Times New Roman and Calibri were used and they were not on my Mac! Of course not...I had either deleted them or disabled them. As a test I went back to Word and saved the volumes as RTF files and opened them in Nisus, an app that specializes in RTF and I got the same report as I got from Quark.

I worked with Support for almost 90 min yesterday, with them controlling my Mac. They uninstalled Office and then reinstalled it and the problem persists. When I showed the support person that Times New Roman was not on my drive and the Calibri was disabled, she asked me how I had done that? I showed her that I use FontExplorer X Pro as my primary font manager she got upset and told me that it is a 3rd party app and that I can't use it. I told her fine...turned it off...then showed her the same thing in Font Book. She told me that this was not acceptable and broke the link and signed off. Oh well.

I am about to contact the parties who want these books done, there will be 12 vol. in all averaging over 300 pages each...requiring the same type faces and formatting etc. , that I will not be able to use what is desired, and will have to bend, and do something else.

Thanks to all who have tried to help! The one problem with producing books today is that the computer and programmers decide what you can do...but in the days of William Caxton or William Morris the fonts were made by hand and you had total control of what you used and where you used it.


Bear😎



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Re: DTP, Fonts, and Word.

Marilyn Matty

On Jul 7, 2017, at 8:11 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

Good Morning Friends!


I sent the below note to the Microsoft Community re: Word in Office 2016. I have huge problems with the Type faces I am using. Lots of suggestions were made to help…none worked. I got an email from James asking if I still needed help? Below is my response which kind of sums up my problems with DTP and Word.



Hi James,

I'm really not sure. I have come to realize that if I were to use Times New Roman or Calibri or Cambria I would have no problems at all. Apparently these fonts have everything needed to produce my work. The problem arises because I need to use two fonts that Word does not like.


If you are doing prepress work for print, and using multiple languages, I suggest moving all formatting to Quark or InDesign. Word is designed for document creation, not production or design. I've never worked with multiple languages, but Word is troublesome enough with plain English typography, and there was a recent discussion here about this. Most professional imagesetters won't accept Word files.

If I remember correctly, it was commissioned by Microsoft to replace TNR as the default font in Office, and has a lot of features built in, like real small caps, that couldn't even be handled by Word. MS wanted a font that would facilitate usage in InDesign, Illustrator and Quark.

I have tried all of the previous suggestions. The only one that seemed to work was to create a style for each font used.

I use InDesign and haven't used Quark in many years, but I think they handle style sheets similarly. you creating a style sheet just for a single type style? It's better put together sheets containing multiple styles according to task, like "body copy," "blah-blah paragraph style," "headers," "captions," etc. 

Maybe try setting up a Basic Paragraph style sheet. Then select this sheet and choose "New Paragraph Style" and give it a new name. Select formats from there. You can also create style groups by clicking on the folder in the Paragraph Styles panel, and dragging and dropping into the appropriate new folders. You can also add a "Next Style" to a style sheet. You can also create nested styles, and import/export styles from other documents.

When I have to use a Hebrew word I have to select it and then click on the style. Then that word and all like it in the paragraph will be changed. I have a font that contains both ,the Greek and Hebrew Type faces that I need so that all the fonts I need for the book are two. This solution takes many, many hours to accomplish.


Creating glyph sets should help with text in other languages. Think of text in another language as special characters in your text and work with them that way.

I finished two volumes and imported them into QuarkXpress 2016 and it immediately alerted me that Times New Roman and Calibri were used and they were not on my Mac! Of course not...I had either deleted them or disabled them. As a test I went back to Word and saved the volumes as RTF files and opened them in Nisus, an app that specializes in RTF and I got the same report as I got from Quark.


I'm not a fan of TNR. And though Calibri isn't one of my favorite fonts either, it is an improvement on TNR. MS had to come up with something that would work better when Word or Excel files are moved from Office to Quark, InDesign or Illy.

I worked with Support for almost 90 min yesterday, with them controlling my Mac. They uninstalled Office and then reinstalled it and the problem persists. When I showed the support person that Times New Roman was not on my drive and the Calibri was disabled, she asked me how I had done that? I showed her that I use FontExplorer X Pro as my primary font manager she got upset and told me that it is a 3rd party app and that I can't use it. I told her fine...turned it off...then showed her the same thing in Font Book. She told me that this was not acceptable and broke the link and signed off. Oh well.


I think her only other option was to tell you that MS didn't want to spend the money to license Times, Helvetica or other fonts with huge, well designed feature sets, or to build a professional design app, and that Word cannot handle professional level typography. That would could have gotten her fired. But hanging up on a customer who is entitled to help is unsatisfactory and should be reported.

I am about to contact the parties who want these books done, there will be 12 vol. in all averaging over 300 pages each...requiring the same type faces and formatting etc. , that I will not be able to use what is desired, and will have to bend, and do something else.


Just work in Quark and change the fonts if necessary.

Thanks to all who have tried to help! The one problem with producing books today is that the computer and programmers decide what you can do...but in the days of William Caxton or William Morris the fonts were made by hand and you had total control of what you used and where you used it.



Though I hate to admit it, but I am old enough to have been a part time and summer job paste up girl in college, and I still have a few faded scars left from Xacto knives and razor blades on my hands. I am thankful for Steve Jobs and the Mac every day.

Marilyn



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Re: DTP, Fonts, and Word.

"John Turner the Bear😎"
Thanks Marilyn!

Yes Word is a problem. But now I have all of these volumes to work with, created in Word, as docx files and I have to resolve this problem. In the future if I get the chance I will start and finish in Quark. As for now…

By the way, I’m old enough too to have worked with real type too!

Bear😎

On Jul 7, 2017, 1:06 PM -0400, Marilyn Matty <[hidden email]>, wrote:

On Jul 7, 2017, at 8:11 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

Good Morning Friends!


I sent the below note to the Microsoft Community re: Word in Office 2016. I have huge problems with the Type faces I am using. Lots of suggestions were made to help…none worked. I got an email from James asking if I still needed help? Below is my response which kind of sums up my problems with DTP and Word.



Hi James,

I'm really not sure. I have come to realize that if I were to use Times New Roman or Calibri or Cambria I would have no problems at all. Apparently these fonts have everything needed to produce my work. The problem arises because I need to use two fonts that Word does not like.


If you are doing prepress work for print, and using multiple languages, I suggest moving all formatting to Quark or InDesign. Word is designed for document creation, not production or design. I've never worked with multiple languages, but Word is troublesome enough with plain English typography, and there was a recent discussion here about this. Most professional imagesetters won't accept Word files.

If I remember correctly, it was commissioned by Microsoft to replace TNR as the default font in Office, and has a lot of features built in, like real small caps, that couldn't even be handled by Word. MS wanted a font that would facilitate usage in InDesign, Illustrator and Quark.

I have tried all of the previous suggestions. The only one that seemed to work was to create a style for each font used.

I use InDesign and haven't used Quark in many years, but I think they handle style sheets similarly. you creating a style sheet just for a single type style? It's better put together sheets containing multiple styles according to task, like "body copy," "blah-blah paragraph style," "headers," "captions," etc. 

Maybe try setting up a Basic Paragraph style sheet. Then select this sheet and choose "New Paragraph Style" and give it a new name. Select formats from there. You can also create style groups by clicking on the folder in the Paragraph Styles panel, and dragging and dropping into the appropriate new folders. You can also add a "Next Style" to a style sheet. You can also create nested styles, and import/export styles from other documents.

When I have to use a Hebrew word I have to select it and then click on the style. Then that word and all like it in the paragraph will be changed. I have a font that contains both ,the Greek and Hebrew Type faces that I need so that all the fonts I need for the book are two. This solution takes many, many hours to accomplish.


Creating glyph sets should help with text in other languages. Think of text in another language as special characters in your text and work with them that way.

I finished two volumes and imported them into QuarkXpress 2016 and it immediately alerted me that Times New Roman and Calibri were used and they were not on my Mac! Of course not...I had either deleted them or disabled them. As a test I went back to Word and saved the volumes as RTF files and opened them in Nisus, an app that specializes in RTF and I got the same report as I got from Quark.


I'm not a fan of TNR. And though Calibri isn't one of my favorite fonts either, it is an improvement on TNR. MS had to come up with something that would work better when Word or Excel files are moved from Office to Quark, InDesign or Illy.

I worked with Support for almost 90 min yesterday, with them controlling my Mac. They uninstalled Office and then reinstalled it and the problem persists. When I showed the support person that Times New Roman was not on my drive and the Calibri was disabled, she asked me how I had done that? I showed her that I use FontExplorer X Pro as my primary font manager she got upset and told me that it is a 3rd party app and that I can't use it. I told her fine...turned it off...then showed her the same thing in Font Book. She told me that this was not acceptable and broke the link and signed off. Oh well.


I think her only other option was to tell you that MS didn't want to spend the money to license Times, Helvetica or other fonts with huge, well designed feature sets, or to build a professional design app, and that Word cannot handle professional level typography. That would could have gotten her fired. But hanging up on a customer who is entitled to help is unsatisfactory and should be reported.

I am about to contact the parties who want these books done, there will be 12 vol. in all averaging over 300 pages each...requiring the same type faces and formatting etc. , that I will not be able to use what is desired, and will have to bend, and do something else.


Just work in Quark and change the fonts if necessary.

Thanks to all who have tried to help! The one problem with producing books today is that the computer and programmers decide what you can do...but in the days of William Caxton or William Morris the fonts were made by hand and you had total control of what you used and where you used it.



Though I hate to admit it, but I am old enough to have been a part time and summer job paste up girl in college, and I still have a few faded scars left from Xacto knives and razor blades on my hands. I am thankful for Steve Jobs and the Mac every day.

Marilyn


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Re: DTP, Fonts, and Word.

Dr Digby L. James
> Yes Word is a problem. But now I have all of these volumes to work with, created in Word, as docx files and I have to resolve this problem. In the future if I get the chance I will start and finish in Quark. As for now…

I sympathise with your problems. Especially with books containing Greek and Hebrew. I’ve just redone one originally done in Word and discovered the Greek and Hebrew font that the author used was not licensed for embedding in PDFs.

I would agree with Marilyn, do everything in Quark or InDesign. It makes consistency easy across books.

You can import Word files into Quark, although lots of funnies get carried through. What I often do is to import, then export to XPress Tags (which is a plain text file with codes) and then edit that to remove the oddities.

It sounds like you are trying to use paragraph style sheets for the Greek/Hebrew, which will change the font of the whole paragraph. You need to use character style sheets, which can be applied to any number of characters that you choose.

Dr Digby L. James
Quinta Press
www.quintapress.com
Meadow View
Weston Rhyn
Oswestry
Shropshire
England
SY10 7RN
Phone (44) (0)1691 778659
Mobile (44) (0)7970 678144





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Re: DTP, Fonts, and Word.

Dave Scocca



Dave Scocca
> On Jul 7, 2017, at 1:34 PM, Dr Digby L. James <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> It sounds like you are trying to use paragraph style sheets for the Greek/Hebrew, which will change the font of the whole paragraph. You need to use character style sheets, which can be applied to any number of characters that you choose.

So here's what's confusing me, a bit.  

In the modern computer world, characters in Greek or Hebrew are not best represented as Roman alphabet characters put into a special font, but rather as the characters themselves, as represented by a character point in Unicode.  

So to get a beta, instead of typing "b" and setting the font to Greek, you type "β" (as I just did on my iPhone) and the system should properly render the character in a way that is as consistent with the surrounding text as the installed fonts allow.

I believe that Word should support Unicode, although for reasonably quick character entry you might have to switch to a keyboard layout for the appropriate language. I'm sure that's what people in Greece and Israel do when they use Word, rather than formatting Roman text in a special font.

Dave





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Re: DTP, Fonts, and Word.

"John Turner the Bear😎"
Hi Dave!

Actually there are a 3 fonts that can be used with no problem and no charge as far as I can understand, and I am using them. The are supplied by SBL and are SBL Hebrew, SBL Greek, and SBL BibLit excellent Type faces with all you need, except for italics ( I don’t need those ). They also provide keyboard mods for them too.

As far as Style sheets go I have a Paragraph Style set for each of the language Type faces that I am using. Thankfully I am just using SBL BibLit now because it contains both the Greek and Hebrew Type faces. When I select a word that is either in Greek or Hebrew, and click on the Quick Style button every entry in the paragraph that is in the particular language is changed to the correct Type face.

Bear😎

On Jul 7, 2017, 2:21 PM -0400, Dave Scocca <[hidden email]>, wrote:



Dave Scocca
On Jul 7, 2017, at 1:34 PM, Dr Digby L. James <[hidden email]> wrote:

It sounds like you are trying to use paragraph style sheets for the Greek/Hebrew, which will change the font of the whole paragraph. You need to use character style sheets, which can be applied to any number of characters that you choose.

So here's what's confusing me, a bit.

In the modern computer world, characters in Greek or Hebrew are not best represented as Roman alphabet characters put into a special font, but rather as the characters themselves, as represented by a character point in Unicode.

So to get a beta, instead of typing "b" and setting the font to Greek, you type "β" (as I just did on my iPhone) and the system should properly render the character in a way that is as consistent with the surrounding text as the installed fonts allow.

I believe that Word should support Unicode, although for reasonably quick character entry you might have to switch to a keyboard layout for the appropriate language. I'm sure that's what people in Greece and Israel do when they use Word, rather than formatting Roman text in a special font.

Dave





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Re: DTP, Fonts, and Word.

"John Turner the Bear😎"
In reply to this post by "John Turner the Bear😎"
I just went to the App Store to check out LibreOffice, it seems to have been taken over by someone else and is now called LibreOffice Vanilla and the reviews are horrible! So bad I am not going to give it a try. I’m going to see if the earlier version still exists to be downloaded.

Bear😎

On Jul 7, 2017, 4:41 PM -0400, wrote:

LibreOffice



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Re: DTP, Fonts, and Word.

Tom Gewecke

On Jul 7, 2017, at 4:49 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

I just went to the App Store to check out LibreOffice, it seems to have been taken over by someone else 

I think you have to go here for the real one:




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Re: DTP, Fonts, and Word.

"John Turner the Bear😎"
In reply to this post by "John Turner the Bear😎"
I just went to the original site and downloaded the current version! Will update soon.

Bear😎

On Jul 7, 2017, 5:05 PM -0400, gastropod <[hidden email]>, wrote:
On Fri, Jul 7, 2017, at 01:49 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

I just went to the App Store to check out LibreOffice, it seems to have
been taken over by someone else and is now called LibreOffice Vanilla and
the reviews are horrible! So bad I am not going to give it a try. I’m
going to see if the earlier version still exists to be downloaded.

The Mac App Store is not good way to get open source software. You
never know who branched it how. At best, it's likely dumbed down to
meet Apple's rules. Go straight for the official version:

http://www.libreoffice.org

Documentation is available in it's native format odt (open document) and
pdf:

http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/documentation/

--
gastropod



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Re: DTP, Fonts, and Word.

Marilyn Matty
In reply to this post by "John Turner the Bear😎"

On Jul 7, 2017, at 1:11 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

Thanks Marilyn!

Yes Word is a problem. But now I have all of these volumes to work with, created in Word, as docx files and I have to resolve this problem. In the future if I get the chance I will start and finish in Quark. As for now…



I did a quick search and you can import .docx into Quark as of version 10:


If you have an older version of Quark, there might be an Xtension somewhere out there that will do this. Or maybe try stripping all the formatting in Word and then importing.

Marilyn



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Re: DTP, Fonts, and Word.

Dr Digby L. James
> I did a quick search and you can import .docx into Quark as of version 10:
>
> https://quark.parature.com/ics/support/KBAnswer.asp?questionID=3141#ratingContent
>
> If you have an older version of Quark, there might be an Xtension somewhere out there that will do this. Or maybe try stripping all the formatting in Word and then importing.

There is a convertor (http://www.editorium.com/index.htm) that will convert Word files to XPress Tags which will then import into any version of Quark. I did read that it and the other macros, had been updated for later versions of Quark, but the website only speaks about Word 2004 and earlier. It will work with PC versions.

If you want to take this route, but want it free, e-mail me and I’ll send you my macros to do this. Not being a programmer, they’re buggy, but they generally do what I need.

Dr Digby L. James
Quinta Press
www.quintapress.com
Meadow View
Weston Rhyn
Oswestry
Shropshire
England
SY10 7RN
Phone (44) (0)1691 778659
Mobile (44) (0)7970 678144





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Re: DTP, Fonts, and Word.

Marilyn Matty
In reply to this post by Dave Scocca


>> On Jul 7, 2017, at 2:19 PM, Dave Scocca <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> In the modern computer world, characters in Greek or Hebrew are not best represented as Roman alphabet characters put into a special font, but rather as the characters themselves, as represented by a character point in Unicode.  

This is a good idea; Unicode is supported in Quark and InDesign. It's easy to script tasks; even I can do it. The glyphs palette has a handy frequently used character panel, which could be very helpful.

Other than a few words or phrases here and there, I haven't worked with multi language documents. But from people who do work in prepress, I always have heard that multi language is a big PITA. Anything done in Word can't be sent to an imagesetter, and the more formatting that's done in Word will create even more work in Quark or InDesign to make it press ready. Trust me, the sooner something can get into a page layout system, the better. It will save a whole lot of time and aggravation, and probably money.

Marilyn



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