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Adobe's Creative Cloud

Mr. Seth Anderson
I'm curious what others think about this - for me, the Adobe Creative Cloud is a big price spike, with dubious benefits. Perhaps freelancers such as myself are not the target audience for Adobe going forward.

Josh Centers writes:
> A boxed copy of CS6 Design Standard runs $1,189.98 on Amazon, and includes only Photoshop, Illustrator, and InDesign.

<http://tidbits.com/e/13745>

This is not a valid comparison, in my opinion. A large percentage of Photoshop/Creative Suite users are upgrading a previous license. I went back and checked my upgrade price paid (I paid for 4 upgrades to the Adobe Creative Suite since May 2007, the earliest data in my Quicken file - even though there were previous upgrades, roughly at the same cost), and averaged over those 6 years, I paid $450 a year. So the Cloud version ($600/year) is significantly more expensive for someone such as myself that upgrades version to version, eventually. Not to mention the fact that if I stop paying, my software stops working, and files stored in the .PSD or .AI format are basically useless. InDesign files are even worse - I don't know of any other tool that even can correctly open layered InDesign files.

I have older versions of the CS suite installed on other, older Macs in my office, good enough for the occasional use or for additional contracted staff to use, as needed. In the new paradigm, this will not be an option. If I need to hire someone for a month or two to give me assistance, what then?

Again, what benefit does the new Cloud version give? Seems tenuous to me, but maybe I'm missing something.

Seth Anderson

often found at http://www.b12partners.net/wp/
or
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Re: Adobe's Creative Cloud

Alexander Forbes
Hot-button question for me. Adobe has been too in-your-face for my money for a long time. This rental scheme is about the last straw.

I have two copies of the full PhotoShop, one about 2010 and one even older on another machine. I'm retired and can't accord the boxed upgrades any more. For my iMac and laptop I have PSE (PhotoShop Lite). But I'm used to the full version.

I also have the great Graphic Converter, and plan to spend more time with it. I live in fear of the day when my Adobe products will (mark my words) suddenly inform me, "this product is not supported on this machine." This happened with my older Macromedia Dreamweaver some time after Adobe bought it. I'm an amateur photographer and a webmaster, so never mastered the full PS feature complement and never will. I won't be stacking 200 astrophotography images in PS any time Real Soon Now. But I don't have to worry about consistent output quality.

Even if I could afford it, I'm not going to drop what I'm doing, rent this year's PS for a month, get it up and running, and figure out how to edit a single photo. As far as I'm concerned, Adobe is sending a loud and clear message that small-potatoes business like mine is no longer desireable.

I still miss SuperPaint.

Alex

Alexander Forbes
[hidden email]




On May 13, 2013, at 3:27 PM, Mr. Seth Anderson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I'm curious what others think about this - for me, the Adobe Creative Cloud is a big price spike, with dubious benefits. Perhaps freelancers such as myself are not the target audience for Adobe going forward.
>
> Josh Centers writes:
>> A boxed copy of CS6 Design Standard runs $1,189.98 on Amazon, and includes only Photoshop, Illustrator, and InDesign.
>
> <http://tidbits.com/e/13745>
>
> This is not a valid comparison, in my opinion. A large percentage of Photoshop/Creative Suite users are upgrading a previous license. I went back and checked my upgrade price paid (I paid for 4 upgrades to the Adobe Creative Suite since May 2007, the earliest data in my Quicken file - even though there were previous upgrades, roughly at the same cost), and averaged over those 6 years, I paid $450 a year. So the Cloud version ($600/year) is significantly more expensive for someone such as myself that upgrades version to version, eventually. Not to mention the fact that if I stop paying, my software stops working, and files stored in the .PSD or .AI format are basically useless. InDesign files are even worse - I don't know of any other tool that even can correctly open layered InDesign files.
>
> I have older versions of the CS suite installed on other, older Macs in my office, good enough for the occasional use or for additional contracted staff to use, as needed. In the new paradigm, this will not be an option. If I need to hire someone for a month or two to give me assistance, what then?
>
> Again, what benefit does the new Cloud version give? Seems tenuous to me, but maybe I'm missing something.
>
> Seth Anderson
>
> often found at http://www.b12partners.net/wp/
> or
> http://www.twitter.com/swanksalot
>
>




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Re: Adobe's Creative Cloud

LuKreme
In reply to this post by Mr. Seth Anderson
On 13 May 2013, at 16:27 , Mr. Seth Anderson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I'm curious what others think about this - for me, the Adobe Creative Cloud is a big price spike, with dubious benefits. Perhaps freelancers such as myself are not the target audience for Adobe going forward.

The one advantage for freelancers is that you can pay for it only for the months you have work. That is balanced against many disadvantages.

Other than that, I think Adobe' CC is a… um, a large gathering or conglomeration of copulation? Yeah, that'll work.

> Not to mention the fact that if I stop paying, my software stops working, and files stored in the .PSD or .AI format are basically useless.

This id the big issue. And also, you will not have the choice to stay with an old version that works for you, but will be force-migrated to the latest and greatest, but only as long as you pay for the ability to access your files. If the latest and greatest isn't so great or breaks something you rely on, too bad.

> Again, what benefit does the new Cloud version give? Seems tenuous to me, but maybe I'm missing something.

More money for Adobe.

--
On nights such as this, evil deeds are done. And good deeds, of course.
But mostly evil deeds.  --Wyrd Sisters




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Re: Adobe's Creative Cloud

Zeedar Marc
In reply to this post by Mr. Seth Anderson

On May 13, 2013, at 3:27 PM, "Mr. Seth Anderson" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I'm curious what others think about this - for me, the Adobe Creative Cloud is a big price spike, with dubious benefits. Perhaps freelancers such as myself are not the target audience for Adobe going forward.

As a designer who's used Adobe products for nearly 25 years, I will say that I'm not happy with the decision. The *idea* of subscription software is fine -- but just make it optional.

Now in my case, though I'm a long-time user, I'm not really doing much professional designing any more. I use Adobe's stuff irregularly (my magazine is produced with InDesign, but that's only every other month). If I was a full-time designer, the new pricing would be fine, as I'd be upgrading the software every year anyway. But in my case, I've been skipping upgrades as they haven't been essential, so switching to the cloud would much more expensive.

I'm also not very happy with Adobe's "improvements" to their software. CS6 is not as good as CS3 in many ways, though it's not unusable. But Adobe's stuff just keeps getting bloated and more complicated and the way their installers *force* crap down your throat really annoys me. (For instance, you can't install Acrobat while any of your web browsers are running, even if you don't want Adobe's PDF web plugins installed and plan to manually uninstall them afterward.) I also am very anti-Flash, and much of what Adobe installs are Air-based utilities and apps which are essentially Flash-based apps. They are ugly and non-Mac-like and as slow as mud.

While I am glad that, according to the article, "no need to worry about an update that doesn’t support your system, as updates aren’t forced," I still wonder about how this will work in the long term.

For me, with a standalone version of the suite, if I don't like Adobe's direction, I can just not upgrade. If I have a monthly subscription, I *have* to pay or my software stops working... even if I'm still using an older, preferred version. In that scenario, what am I getting for my monthly fee? I'm basically paying thousands of dollars over the years for the privilege of running old, outdated software!

In a sense, by going with a subscription, Adobe *is* forcing everyone to upgrade.

I also wonder about what incentives Adobe will have to add compelling new features. Right now Adobe has to earn my money. With a sub, I'm a captive, unable to leave.

On another note, I wonder about my great-uncle. He's an illustrator who's retired now and in his 90s but still loves doodle in Illustrator. He's using a CS2 version, I think, on an old iMac. At his age he has no interest in spending even a dime on any upgrades (hardware or software). He's certainly not making any money and his use of the software is just for fun (he mostly makes elaborate, amazing birthday cards for his grandkids). How would someone like him fare if he'd bought into subscription-only software? He'd be stuck paying corporate rates forever for a hobby.

That galls me, and I'm against Adobe's new plan on principle, as I don't want other companies to adopt it. I won't be supporting it. I'm now exploring alternatives and over the next few years plan to wean myself off of Adobe completely.


Marc Zeedar
Publisher, Real Studio Developer Magazine
www.rsdeveloper.com






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Re: Adobe's Creative Cloud

Rodney
In reply to this post by Mr. Seth Anderson
On May 14, 2013, at 00:27, "Mr. Seth Anderson" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I'm curious what others think about this - for me, the Adobe Creative Cloud is a big price spike, with dubious benefits. Perhaps freelancers such as myself are not the target audience for Adobe going forward.

I'm certainly not happy about it.  I'm a retiree and I use Adobe CS Web Premium either for my own amusement or to do favors for friends.  I previously only upgraded when there were enough new features to make it worthwhile.  This is maybe every two years, minimum.  I couldn't really justify a subscription.  I suspect that I'm with you.  I'm not in Adobe's "target demographic".




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Re: Adobe's Creative Cloud

Allen Watson
On May 13, 2013, at 4:18 PM, Rodney <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On May 14, 2013, at 00:27, "Mr. Seth Anderson" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I'm certainly not happy about it.  I'm a retiree and I use Adobe CS Web Premium either for my own amusement or to do favors for friends.  I previously only upgraded when there were enough new features to make it worthwhile.  This is maybe every two years, minimum.  I couldn't really justify a subscription.  I suspect that I'm with you.  I'm not in Adobe's "target demographic".
>
>
That pretty much describes me, too: retiree, using CS5 Web Premium, with which I maintain a website for a church class. I figure I'll abandon Dreamweaver, and go to something simpler, maybe Panic's Coda, use Photoshop Elements or Aperture for image editing. What I'll miss, honestly, is Dreamweaver's "Strip Word HTML" tool.





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Re: Adobe's Creative Cloud

Paul Chernoff
My company keeps up to date with Adobe software. A number of Creative Suites and 50 licenses for InCopy. We pay our annual maintenance fee, looks like we are getting squat for the $4,700 we paid in January, and we are looking at our expenses going up by at least $15,000/year with Creative Cloud. We will need to get Create Cloud Team for the administrative features, pushing costs up even higher.

There are some advantages. Our current Creative Suite users would get access to a great range of Adobe software, so they could pick up a new app at no cost. And if someone brings in a temp for a month I can rent what they need for just a month. But I hear many publishers are not happy with seeing their Adobe software costs going up by a factor of 4x.


Paul Chernoff
Director of Information Technology
Washingtonian Magazine
202.862.3504





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Re: Adobe's Creative Cloud

Dan O'Donnell

On 5/14/13 6:57 AM, "Paul Chernoff" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> cost. And if someone brings in a temp for a month I can rent what they need
> for just a month. But I hear many publishers are not happy with seeing their
> Adobe software costs going up by a factor of 4x.

We have a number of machines that - after the current setup - never see the
public internet. So eliminating media delivery and installation is a
non-starter, and requiring connection to the internet is a non-mover. For
these few computers we are forced to find alternatives. We are not the only
Adobe customers in this situation.




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Re: Adobe's Creative Cloud

adamengst
Administrator
In reply to this post by Paul Chernoff
On Tue, May 14, 2013 at 9:57 AM, Paul Chernoff
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> My company keeps up to date with Adobe software. A number of Creative Suites and 50 licenses for InCopy. We pay our annual maintenance fee, looks like we are getting squat for the $4,700 we paid in January, and we are looking at our expenses going up by at least $15,000/year with Creative Cloud. We will need to get Create Cloud Team for the administrative features, pushing costs up even higher.

Can you share some specific numbers about how many licenses you'd
need, and why the Creative Cloud Team edition would cost that much? I
was under the impression that Creative Cloud would be cheaper for
larger groups, but it was impossible to tell from Adobe's site.

> There are some advantages. Our current Creative Suite users would get access to a great range of Adobe software, so they could pick up a new app at no cost. And if someone brings in a temp for a month I can rent what they need for just a month. But I hear many publishers are not happy with seeing their Adobe software costs going up by a factor of 4x.

A fourfold increase is massive.

Personally, I was pretty much OK with it, since I had Photoshop and
InDesign CS3, and wasn't being able to open CS6 documents from people
I work with. Instead of having to upgrade them for hundreds of dollars
and then buy Illustrator outright for dealing with a logo design, the
$30 per month first year of Creative Cloud seemed pretty reasonable.

cheers... -Adam



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Re: Adobe's Creative Cloud

Nanther Thangarajah

On May 14, 2013, at 10:43 AM, Adam Engst wrote:

> On Tue, May 14, 2013 at 9:57 AM, Paul Chernoff
>
>> There are some advantages. Our current Creative Suite users would get access to a great range of Adobe software, so they could pick up a new app at no cost. And if someone brings in a temp for a month I can rent what they need for just a month. But I hear many publishers are not happy with seeing their Adobe software costs going up by a factor of 4x.
>
> A fourfold increase is massive.
>
> Personally, I was pretty much OK with it, since I had Photoshop and
> InDesign CS3, and wasn't being able to open CS6 documents from people
> I work with. Instead of having to upgrade them for hundreds of dollars
> and then buy Illustrator outright for dealing with a logo design, the
> $30 per month first year of Creative Cloud seemed pretty reasonable.

We're struggling with the same thing as well: with our existing 25-user volume license, and trying to decide if we should go to CS6 first, to delay the inevitable, or take the plunge now. First year costs are almost doable for the Creative Cloud for Teams product at $12000 but projected costs after that are $21,000 or so, annually, That is, assuming, there are no pricing changes. :)

Our one-time payment for CS6 would be $17,500 give or take, which should buy us a couple of years of compatibility with the clients and vendors we work with (unless Adobe changes the file format with InDesign CC, for example.)

Of course there's all sorts of application availability and collaborative benefits with Creative Cloud, but unless you have a large enough installation to qualify for the Enterprise offering (the Adobe vendor rep said "thousands of users"), smaller installations like us do not get a price break at all.

Nanther


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Re: Adobe's Creative Cloud

Rodney
In reply to this post by adamengst
On May 14, 2013, at 16:43, Adam Engst <[hidden email]> wrote:

> ... the $30 per month first year of Creative Cloud seemed pretty reasonable.

It's the "for first year" bit that worries me.  I have CS6 Web Premium now, and I hope to get a couple of years out of it at least.  Dreamweaver is the product I use the most, so maybe in a couple of years I'll take a hard look at Squarespace or whatever else is available then.




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Re: Adobe's Creative Cloud

Alia Michaels
In reply to this post by Mr. Seth Anderson
I'm a freelancer, too, and during all the years I've been working, I've
upgraded when my clients upgraded because I had to 'match' their version.
Like others have mentioned, that meant that I upgraded Adobe products about
every other upgrade cycle.

Unless I have a client that uses the Creative Cloud, I won't be using the
subscription model.

I've just purchased CS6 (no upgrade path from CS4) and hopefully that will
get me through to 'so-called' retirement. The other issue that hasn't been
specifically mentioned is that with the switch to subscriptions, Adobe had
limited the upgrade paths for their most recent versions. I may have to
purchase one or two more items from them before the remaining upgrade paths
disappear.

I prefer to have access to the software that I've purchased and not have it
magically disappear if I don't pay an on-going fee. (I'm not including a
monthly subscription to Creative Cloud as part of my retirement budget.)
So, I'm definitely not part of the Adobe Cloud demographics.

Alia Michaels

On May 13, 2013, at 3:27 PM, Mr. Seth Anderson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I'm curious what others think about this - for me, the Adobe Creative
Cloud is a big price spike, with dubious benefits. Perhaps freelancers such
as myself are not the target audience for Adobe going forward.
>


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Re: Adobe's Creative Cloud

Roger Henriques
In reply to this post by Rodney
On 14-05-2013, at 12:39 PM, Rodney wrote:

> It's the "for first year" bit that worries me.  I have CS6 Web Premium now, and I hope to get a couple of years out of it at least. Dreamweaver is the product I use the most, so maybe in a couple of years I'll take a hard look at Squarespace or whatever else is available then.

With very moderate programming skills (I'm sure much less than yours), I have almost completely transitioned from Dreamweaver CS3 to Espresso/CSSEdit for web development (Coda is also a good choice - mainly a matter of personal taste). I still use Dreamweaver to build tables where necessary, and maintain a couple of legacy sites, and I prefer a dedicated FTP program (Transmit) to either Espresso's or Dreamweaver's site management tools.

For more complex database-driven sites, I subcontract the PHP code to a programmer - but then I never liked Dreamweaver's PHP/MySQL tools anyway.

For Photoshop/Illustrator/Acrobat substitutes, I've heard good things about Acorn and Pixelmator for images and Sketch for vector stuff. they all suffer from not having CMYK support at the moment, but I'm hoping Adobe's move to the Cloud will stimulate one of the above to add CMYK support before I can no longer use PS and Illy...

And there is PDFPen for editing PDF Docs.

And no, I'm not buying any more Adobe products beyond my current CS5 suite - sadly, since I started with PS2, Ill. 7 and InDesign 1, and have invested a lot of time fitting my workflow to them.

Roger H.
[hidden email]


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Re: Adobe's Creative Cloud

Alexander Forbes
Ahhh, the end of an era! I got into the PS upgrade path back in 1995 with a Power Mac 7100.


Alexander Forbes
[hidden email]




On May 14, 2013, at 2:00 PM, Roger Henriques <[hidden email]> wrote:

> And no, I'm not buying any more Adobe products beyond my current CS5 suite - sadly, since I started with PS2, Ill. 7 and InDesign 1, and have invested a lot of time fitting my workflow to them.



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Re: Adobe's Creative Cloud

Rodney
In reply to this post by Roger Henriques
On May 14, 2013, at 23:00, Roger Henriques <[hidden email]> wrote:

> With very moderate programming skills (I'm sure much less than yours), I have almost completely transitioned from Dreamweaver CS3 to Espresso/CSSEdit for web development (Coda is also a good choice - mainly a matter of personal taste). I still use Dreamweaver to build tables where necessary, and maintain a couple of legacy sites, and I prefer a dedicated FTP program (Transmit) to either Espresso's or Dreamweaver's site management tools.

You're still using tables instead of divs and css?  :-)

I personally find Dreamweaver CS6 to be a big improvement over CS3.  Yes, I spent a lot of my career as a developer, and have never completely given up that role.  It really bothers me to see so many sysadmins these days who can't program.  However, I'm a firm believer in don't build it if you can buy it, so I avoid programming when feasible even though I enjoy it.

I prefer Dreamweaver's site management tools, especially the ability to sync updated files.  I make a lot of use of templates, code snippets, and some of the built-in Dreamweaver variables such as modification date.  If CS6 is getting long in the tooth in a couple of years (and if I'm still doing web sites in spite of my advancing years), I'll maybe consider a CMS system like WordPress or Drupal.  Or, I'll look at a hosting company like Squarespace.  Maybe by then Adobe will offer Dreamweaver Elements...




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Re: Adobe's Creative Cloud

Roger Henriques
On 14-05-2013, at 5:43 PM, Rodney wrote:

> You're still using tables instead of divs and css?  :-)

Only for tabular data... 8-)

Roger H.
[hidden email]




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Re: Adobe's Creative Cloud

Paul Chernoff
In reply to this post by adamengst
I have been told my Adobe supplier that Adobe is still working out details for larger companies and they will write to all of their customers when they know what to tell us. So perhaps larger purchasers will see discounts. I haven't been panicking about the change since it just happened and I have months to let the dust settle. But it seems that Adobe has made a major mistake in making a major announcement before filling in the details.

> Can you share some specific numbers about how many licenses you'd
> need, and why the Creative Cloud Team edition would cost that much? I
> was under the impression that Creative Cloud would be cheaper for
> larger groups, but it was impossible to tell from Adobe's site.

Let's see if I can publicly embarrass myself with my math. I am using the full price, not the discount for the first 12 months if you sign up right now.

InCopy, 50 licenses, $20, 12 months. $12,000 a year. More than twice our current maintenance contracts.
Let's say 15 copies of Creative Cloud Team, $70, 12 months. $12,600 a year.

For 2013 we paid around $4,700 to put most of our Adobe software on maintenance to guarantee that we get upgrades.

Companies beyond a certain size need to buy the Team version because it allows for centralized administration, for an additional $20/license/month. An Adobe sales rep told me that if I bought the regular Creative Cloud we would get a separate charge for every package and if someone left the organization they would have the license, not us. He made administration of 65 licenses without Team to sound like a disaster for any organization to administer.

I still have a number of questions, such as, can our staff use the license for their work computer on their home computer. Can the InCopy only licenses be administered via Team or as individual purchases. In the latter case, according to Adobe sales rep, this would be an administrative disaster for me.

I do see the current Creative Cloud offering as a great opportunity for many people. I am not making a case about the horrors of subscription based software. Right now, as presented by Adobe, this is going to be very expensive for my publication.

At the very least Adobe has hurt itself by not having all of the details out there at the very beginning of their announcement.


Paul Chernoff
Director of Information Technology
Washingtonian Magazine
202.862.3504





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Re: Adobe's Creative Cloud

adamengst
Administrator
On Tue, May 14, 2013 at 6:18 PM, Paul Chernoff
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> I have been told my Adobe supplier that Adobe is still working out details for larger companies and they will write to all of their customers when they know what to tell us. So perhaps larger purchasers will see discounts. I haven't been panicking about the change since it just happened and I have months to let the dust settle. But it seems that Adobe has made a major mistake in making a major announcement before filling in the details.

Great details, Paul, thanks! It does sound as though Adobe really
jumped the gun by announcing when they did.

cheers... -Adam



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Re: Adobe's Creative Cloud

Curtis Wilcox
In reply to this post by Paul Chernoff
On May 14, 2013, at 6:18 PM, Paul Chernoff <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Companies beyond a certain size need to buy the Team version because it allows for centralized administration, for an additional $20/license/month. An Adobe sales rep told me that if I bought the regular Creative Cloud we would get a separate charge for every package and if someone left the organization they would have the license, not us. He made administration of 65 licenses without Team to sound like a disaster for any organization to administer.

Sounds like the headaches of Apple IDs and Mac App Store purchases for businesses. I don't see why the license would have to walk out the door with the former employee, just make the associated Adobe ID accounts belong to the business. Keeping track of 65 of those would be a real hassle but $15,600/year sounds like too much to pay to avoid it.




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Re: Adobe's Creative Cloud

Paul Chernoff

On May 14, 2013, at 10:50 PM, Curtis Wilcox <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On May 14, 2013, at 6:18 PM, Paul Chernoff <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Companies beyond a certain size need to buy the Team version because it allows for centralized administration, for an additional $20/license/month. An Adobe sales rep told me that if I bought the regular Creative Cloud we would get a separate charge for every package and if someone left the organization they would have the license, not us. He made administration of 65 licenses without Team to sound like a disaster for any organization to administer.
>
> Sounds like the headaches of Apple IDs and Mac App Store purchases for businesses. I don't see why the license would have to walk out the door with the former employee, just make the associated Adobe ID accounts belong to the business. Keeping track of 65 of those would be a real hassle but $15,600/year sounds like too much to pay to avoid it.
>
>
I don't either but I've had more than one person at Adobe make this claim. CC for Teams compared to CC is $20/person/month which comes to $3,600 extra for 15 users. Since I last posted the Adobe rep told me that I would have to individually administer each InCopy license, there are 50 of those.

And I found out more about how CC for Teams works. You set up a 1 year contract and buy X licenses. If you add a license later you pay a prorated fee so they all expire at the same time. If you want to reduce the number of licenses you have to wait for CC for Teams renewal.

I was hoping that CC for Enterprise would help us but was told we would need a 3 year contract for $300,000. We aren't large enough for that.

My conclusions is that Adobe has not thought this through. There are many customers who buy InCopy for editorial staff and don't want to pay for CC for Team for them, but also don't want to manage a mess of individual licenses. I expect by the time we switch over to Creative Cloud my issues will be solved. In the meantime I am making what noise I can.


Paul Chernoff
Director of Information Technology
Washingtonian Media
202.862.3504




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